I'm not a Christian but I do enjoy hearing choral music sung in church, especially at Christmas.

This year I'm going to one of the Christmas concerts at the Royal Albert Hall, a carol service on Saturday 22nd. I wanted to go to this one, but my friend hummed and hawed so much about whether or not she wanted to go that by the time she said yes it was sold out. So it's this one instead.

How does one get tickets? Is it a lottery?

I can see why they would have to offer tickets, but at first my mind sort of screeched to a halt thinking about the idea of buying tickets to a religious service.

Makes me think I should make an attempt to go to midnight mass this year, though. I haven't in a long time. I'm not religious anymore, but something about it is comforting.

Yes, TPS, it's a lottery. You have to write in September and make a request. My mom's tried for several years and this year's the first time we've received tickets. In the letter that came with the tickets they also say that you can't expect to get tickets again next year if you've gotten them already.

Kellydamnit, you don't have to pay for the tickets - they're just to reserve pew space for attendees. There's not enough room even in a cathedral to just throw the doors open for this service. There is an earlier Christmas Eve mass designed for children, and at least one Christmas day Mass, and neither of those require tickets. The midnight Mass is they only time they have to be so organized in advance.

Kellydamnit, you don't have to pay for the tickets - they're just to reserve pew space for attendees.

OK, that makes a lot more sense! Thanks!

I went to St. Patrick's once. It was a very humbling experience. We have a lot of churches here, but none that even come close to that level of magnificence.

That's exciting, Miko. I visited St. Patrick's Cathedral on St. Patrick's Day moons ago.

Also, The National Shrine Of The Immaculate Conception (weak website, doesn't do it justice) was on my College Campus, and a girlfriend of mine managed to drag me to Latin Mass in the Crypt Church once. That was nifty.

Grad School. Grad School campus. I've been covering up my grad school degree for so long in the corporate world, I'm starting to make it a habit. Yuck.

Heh!

It'd be fun to see a mass in such a grand space.

[Not Catholic/Christian; agnostic at the most. Never watched a mass.]

Wow miko, that is going to be highly memorable, I bet. We stopped in there last Thanksgiving & a small mass was in progress. Impressive to say the least.

Sorry,but look at the track record.This is one of the most evil institutions in the world,even if it looks like a nice meditation.Every war since time began starts with either politics,religion,or big business.
Sorry to burst the bubble,but it had to be said.

I agree with you, whiskeychimp. It's a fantastic space though.

Hopefully the stagehand strike will be over by then.


*rimshot*

whiskeychimp, attending any public services can be taken in many ways, and all reasons seem valid to me. I'm a raised Catholic Atheist, and you know what I'd like to attend? A snake handling event. Would it be wrong of me to attend out of sociological curiosity and not belief? Perhaps, because as I understand it, these are not strictly public services. But if a service is public, it implies the religious institution welcomes all comers, regardless of belief. Why miss an opportunity to view something you don't understand or even actively disagree with? I suppose you could organize a protest of the mass, that'd be another kind of theatre. If you opt out of every experience associated with politics, religion, or big business, you're cutting out many slices of life going on around you!

I was just thinking this weekend that I miss attending Advent and Christmas Eve services (not Mass - this was during my Protestant childhood). I liked the Advent candles and the family readings and trimming the church during the first week in December. Volunteering at the homeless shelter. I understand why so many people only attend church on Christmas (and Easter) - lots of song-singing, inspirational candle-lighting, a church lovingly decorated with a big tree and poinsettas (our tree was so big, the star on the top had to be suspended from the ceiling).

whiskeychimp, you're kind of preaching to the choir. Obviously, religion has been a tremendous channel for human aggression throughout the centuries. I'm a freethinker and practice as a Quaker, but I have known and respected far too many religious people to think matters of religion are simple, cut-and-dried do-or-don't issues or that institutions which are so powerful in personal and civic life can be dismissed by with a sophomoric wave of the hand. It's quite possible to attend services and still think critically.

Though much evil has been done in the name of religion, much good has been done, as well; in fact, until the last century, consider the fact that there were no social services provided to needy publics other than those performed by religious organizations. Churches fed the poor, nursed the sick, cared for orphans, sponsored works of art and music, provided counseling and education. The peace movement, anti-slavery movement, labor and prison reform movements, and civil rights movements rose from origins within religious thought.

Religions can't be cast as purely evil any more than atheism can be cast as purely good. Organized religions, like all human organizations, are only as good as their leadership and are products of their historical time and geographical place. You're not bursting any bubbles for someone who has spent most of her life seeking to understand religious issues and recognizing that there is a lot of good, worthy stuff going on in houses of worship, just as there is a lot of shitty, lousy stuff going on outside them.

It's naive to think that the world wouldn't have had wars and oppression without religions - that was the idea of the eighteenth and nineteenth century and the birth of the nation-state, and what happened? We replaced wars sparked and managed by church leadership with wars sparked and managed by national governments.

Your comment was arrogant. If you're curious about my personal history with regard to organized religion, or how I approach participation in a situation such as this and reconcile it with my own personal morality, you're welcome to ask, but to condemn it flat-out is presuming far too much that you just don't know about me.

Hear, hear, Miko! The people involved at these events may well be doing things to work against the bad things within their institutions. I'm a Jew, but the fact that I have attended religious events/ceremonies for faiths outside my own does not mean I condone actions done in their name, nor does it mean I have a desire to convert.

Whoever gives support to an obviously evil/bad institution either hasn't done research,is ignorant,or is totally apathetic.
Attendance means support,brujita.
And no,my comment wasn't arrogant,
it is based on years of research.
And miko,how vain of you to even
presume I was talking about you.
Also,how very *religious* of you to semi-flame when I made no mention of your name,personal history,or anything.And to call me naive? You'd best take a look at yourself.What kind of research,studies,and involvement
have you done? And there are two types of people:spiritual(who understand things),and religious
(who are willingly led,because they don't understand things,mostly themselves).Thank you people,for proving my point.
I almost didn't have to reply,hehhehheh...

whiskeychimp: less enter key, more intelligence please.

Put another way: Less whiskey, more chimp.

Or possibly vice versa....

stynxno,mudpuppie..stay in front of your computer all the time,as reality is far too unforgiving for
people who cannot deal with someone elses view.Please,don't go outside,something might challenge you..hahahahha!!!

Actually, whiskeychimp, it's more like the fact that you shat in Miko's really innocuous and innocent thread, which kinda isn't the way things are usually done here. There are plenty of ways to introduce the discussion you were trying to have. The way you approached it was ungraceful and pretty rude -- generally speaking, and personally (towards Miko).

So, you know, there you go.

whiskeychimp, if you're going to hang around here, some pieces of advice.

1. It's a mature site. People here have quite a bit of life experience. We have indeed "studied," "done research," and been on our own personal vision-quests, to an extent you seem unable to imagine. Perhaps in your own milieu, you've been one of the more questioning minds; you won't find that makes you at all unusual here. Assume wordliness here, not naivete.

2. Don't take stances so extreme they are indefensible. You say that if a person gives support to an "evil" or "bad" institution, they have either "done no research," are "apathetic," or are "ignorant" That's a pretty extreme stance, discounting many other possible reasons for supporting an organization in a minor way. So let's take a look at your personal habits. We'll have to assume that you don't pay U.S. taxes, shop at chain stores with regional, national, or global brands, buy fossil fuels, purchase meats from the grocery store, or attend movies? Great; then you don't support any evil institutions. Unless you do. And if you do, which is it: are you apathetic, ignorant, or just too lazy to do research? Please pick only one. Your parameters.

3. Despite your delightfully simple worldview, there actually are more than two types of people.

I'm not really offended, because you're flailing. I don't think you have the chops for a serious, reasoned discussion of whether or not it is morally defensible to attend a religious service in a denomination with which you have moral disagreements. It's an interesting question, and one that people wrestle with all day every day. Many people here do so, in fact, every day, as you'll find out if you stay.

You won't get far throwing accusations of my poor religiosity at me; I already said I was a freethinker. So telling me I'm not very religious doesn't sting. You also probably can't tell me a damn thing about the Catholic church that I don't already know, despite your "years of research." I'm rather well informed about the evolution of Christianity, the comparative beliefs of the major denominations, and the moral problems within them. As the product of a home in which various religions met, clashed, meshed, and distilled, and as a student of history, folklore, ethnography, and anthropology, this stuff is my bread and butter.

Your overall tone is nasty, sophomoric, and judgemental, and it's just not going to be well received here. If you recasted your original statement as something like "I personally can't participate in Catholic services because I believe this is one of the most evil institutions in the world," then I don't think you'd have aroused any serious ire, and might have started an interesting discussion about the many ways in which individual, dissenting people negotiate authority in religious structures when their own beliefs are in conflict with dogma.

But you're going to have to forgive me for chuckling at someone who seems to think they are the first person to suss out blemishes on the moral purity of the Catholic church. Monty Python got there a while back. And even they were late.

Thank you for a very amusing post.Back at you:When you get past your teens,grade 10,or your cult conditioning,let's resume this discourse in a more knowledge sharing manner.Perhaps a little less self-righteous,and puerile.It took me three weeks to cool off,and not trace your ip addy.If I wasn't ultra-flamed in a private e-mail,I wouldn't have responded this way.Was that you? I don't know.And you might notice,I first said "politics, religion, and big business",which cannot be denied,not just religion.And you started the flame here miko,so suck it up,and take responsibility for your words,as I am.And I guarantee you,you would not talk so disrespectfully to a person like me in person,friend. Especially with my comment being innocently postulated.With my apologies to you all,in particular the delightful elizard,I sit in the branches throwing plums around.

Who or what might a "person like me" be? Why would it be different talking to you "in person"? Are you a violent sociopath we should fear "in person?".

whiskeychimp goes buh-bye!

wow. that was... weird.

Holy shit, wc, wtf? I'm fucking embarrassed to know you at this point. Wow. I'll be chattin' with you in person.

My apologies to my beloved bunnies, and especially to Miko. I don't know what to say. *hangs head in shame at even knowing someone capable of this crap*

Miko, I'm so glad you get to go to this. It sounds wonderful.

Drunk posting is bad and wrong. I should know :-)

Can I be the local whiskeychimp now? Because I'm in job-app mode, and I'm pretty sure I have all the qualifications it takes to do whiskey + chimp. Plus, I can cook real good.

Not to speak for miko, but don't worry eliz! We love you; we know you love us. We are together melting into a hot, steamy bunny-lizard goo of love.