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17 October 2007

So I made a scene at dinner tonight... →[More:]
After taking a shower, I went to meet up with my roommate and friends at the dining hall. I found them at a small table, where there certainly wasn't enough room for the five of us.

Everyone made an effort to scoot over (I got stuck with a seat inbetween our table and a table next to us with too many girls sitting at it), make some room, get rid of trays (they take up a lot of space and are usually the first thing to go), etc.

Everyone except for one person. We'll call him John. John made a half assed effort to move and zero effort to make any room on the table. His tray remained.

I say to John "hey, can you get rid of your tray so there's room?"

He ignores me.

I get rid of my tray and say to my roommate "hey is there a spot for this over there?" He says "you mean with all the others?" I laugh. I say "Yeah apparently John here doesn't want to make the effort."

I turn to John, pat him on the leg and say "Thanks, I really appreciate your help."

He finally speaks, saying "Don't touch me."

I pat him again on the leg, at which point he throws his drink (Mountain Dew) on me and shoves me.

I know it sounds cliche but things get a little hazy immediately following this. I'm pretty sure I hit him in the face, I might have done so while throwing his second drink (also a Dew) on him. It's weird, because I can't tell if I did throw the drink or if I had only thought about doing it.

I am extremely pissed off, so much so that my hand is shaking. Everyone is staring but I don't give enough of a shit. I'm yelling now. "What the FUCK is your problem!?" and the like. I'm pretty sure I smacked him.

A girl at the table behind me says something to the effect of "You're an asshole! (To John:) Don't worry, I got your back." I say "Blow me."

I ask him what his fucking problem is, and he starts saying that he's tired of me "making jokes" or something like that. I tell him the adults use their words (oh the irony!). He said he's told me "all the time." I ask when, cutting him off to ask again each time he stammers. The only answer he can muster is "a bunch of times last year." I told him that was bullshit, that he's never said anything to me and that it's bullshit that he decided to throw his drink on me to signify he had a problem.

And so I get up and leave. Covered in Mountain Dew which is starting to get pretty sticky, embaressment slowly beginning to seep through the cracks, but still extremely pissed off.

I had seen a therapist a few years ago about some anger issues. It's not that I got angry all the time or over minor things (I actually have a pretty long fuse, and seeing the therapist seems to have only doubled my patience), it's just that I had/have a hard time dealing with it when I do get angry. So I learned a few tips on how to calm down. Counting and just breathing and all that. But I haven't been this angry in a very long time.

So I get back to the room, and I try and chill out. Nothing was helping, and so I end up punching the door a few times, which only helped a little. A did as many pushups as I could, and that helped a little. I've washed off the majority of the Dew, but here I sit, adrenaline still pumping but at a third of what it was half an hour ago, and I still can't seem to fully come off it. I'm pissed off, angry at John (I differentiate between the two), slightly more embaressed (though I don't think I handled the situation too badly), and yeah. Ta da.

Writing about it helped, I think.

But still.

I guess I'll go do my laundry.

Thanks for letting me rant.

post by: CitrusFreak12 at: 19:09 | 26 comments

DO THE DEW!

posted by mullacc 17 October | 19:17

There seems to be a discrepancy here:

So I made a scene at dinner tonight...

...

I pat him again on the leg, at which point he throws his drink (Mountain Dew) on me and shoves me.

I'm not saying it's peachy-keen to go into a haze and strike people, but it sounds to me like he made a scene, and then you let yourself get caught up in it.

Any way it happened, it's stressful. Sounds like you're cooling down, and that's good.

posted by Elsa 17 October | 19:25

Sounds like this John really knows how to hold a grudge. You once said something jokingly that angered him, it seems. Any idea what?

posted by iconomy 17 October | 19:29

Yeah, I agree with Elsa; fighting is never good, but on the other hand there's no excuse for his behavior. From now on, just avoid the dude.

WTF is going on recently? October has been the crappiest month.

posted by muddgirl 17 October | 19:37

I turn to John, pat him on the leg and say "Thanks, I really appreciate your help."
He finally speaks, saying "Don't touch me."
I pat him again on the leg, at which point he throws his drink (Mountain Dew) on me and shoves me.
So, even though he asked you not to touch him and even though you must be aware that some people don't like to be touched for whatever reason, you ignored his wishes?

Seems to me that he acted like a complete arsehole, but that you aren't exactly blameless yourself. Sometimes it's better to let people be than to fight over inconsequential things.

posted by dg 17 October | 19:40

Eponymous?

posted by Doohickie 17 October | 19:54

That's a pretty good point, Elsa. Meh. Still. I don't like letting myself get that angry.

Iconomy: John is a really socially awkward person. For the longest time we thought he had Aspergers (seriously), but he's apparently never been tested. It should give you an idea of how he acts, though. As a result, he finds himself the butt of many jokes most of the time. I try to be aware of whether or not I'm doing it (I like to believe in karma). I'm not sure what happened before I showed up and set him off, but some of my friends (who got tipped off and all came to my room to check up on me) have come to the conclusion that he chose to act out on me because I'm "the least likely to kick his ass", compared with someone like my roommate. He figured he could get away with it with little incident. Considering my roommate would have knocked him out, I guess he was right. The reasons he gave for dumping his soda on me--making jokes/making fun of him, not "touching my leg"--seems to reinforce the notion.

So, even though he asked you not to touch him and even though you must be aware that some people don't like to be touched for whatever reason, you ignored his wishes?

Yes. Even though he asked me not to touch him, I touched him, not in spite of the chance that he might not like it but rather because he might not like it. He was being antagonistic on all counts for reasons unknown and I decided not to do him any favors because of it. I know I'm not blameless.

posted by CitrusFreak12 17 October | 19:56

I always assume that people who are being total asshole-seeming types are having some vast personal tragedy that I can just barely comprehend. So, CF12, I am very sorry about this whole mess which sounds terrible and yet I can't help thinking that if you had just not touched the guy who said "don't touch me" this might have gone differently.

So, for now, yeah get on your bicycle or get in the pool and tire yourself out (or veny about it here, that's what we're here for). For later, you may have to find a way to make AngryJohn a distant part of your circle without him inciting you to anger or whatever -- let him be the only asshole in the room if it's going to go that way.

posted by jessamyn 17 October | 19:58

psst, CF dude check this out...CAGE MATCH!!

posted by lonefrontranger 17 October | 20:26

You got good advice up thread. I can only add that since you both seem to have the same group of friends and (I think) you want to keep the peace: be polite but distant in the future.

posted by deborah 17 October | 20:39

Still. I don't like letting myself get that angry.

Yeah, I agree with you that it's not okay to lose it like that, for either of you, nor to toy with someone's boundaries just for the sake of lighting their fuse. But it sounded like you were shouldering all of the blame, not some of it.

In your shoes, I'd be wondering what exactly caused me to push John, and why.* You usually sound (from what I've seen of you, anyway) like a remarkably sensible, intelligent person open to discourse and disagreement, and from that perspective this little story seems jolting.

And Jessamyn's advice about letting John be "the only asshole in the room" --- spot-on.

*But that's just me thinking out loud, and I'm notorious among my friends for my behavioral pattern seeking. Disregard at will.

posted by Elsa 17 October | 20:48

Oh, man. I can relate. I have a scary temper that almost never gets out of the cage. I've never pushed or hit anyone, but then, I've never been doused with Mountain Dew before, either. Also, I'm a girl, and, you know - the dynamic is different... girls aren't (generally) encouraged by sport and play and culture cues to physically dominate others. But, aiiigh, I can smash up a room okay, if it comes to that (which it doesn't. *crosses fingers*).

But, yeah - here's the thing: he was the leading asshole, but you were the following asshole... and you really don't want to be following the lead of a guy like this. He was being clearly hostile in a passive aggressive way, but when you started with the touching, you were in effect saying "I'm going to touch you and there's nothing you can do about it" and brought the conflict into the physical realm. Touching him after he said not to was an ultimatum. You were basically daring him to do something beyond the verbal. And he did.

Avoid this guy (or find out why he feels persecuted, and why he views you as a lead antagonist), but also beware that tendency to shift the terms of a conflict towards the physical. I say this as a fellow anger monster: you need to be hyper-aware of your flash points, and tenacious about developing techniques to subvert your worst instincts. The worst I've had to rue is the destruction of most of a set of really nice china... You never want to be ruing something that involves hospitals and/or criminal charges. No.

{{{CF}}}

posted by taz 17 October | 23:56

This whole thing sounds ridiculously low grade, cf12. My first and second year at college, I lived in an athletic dorm, with 300+ lb. people who picked up and threw loaded Coke machines down flights of stairs, if they had a bad date. A loaded Coke machine weighs upwards of 700+ lbs, and breaks chunks off concrete steps as it goes down flights of dorm stairs. A couple people on the short end of an argument got a one lesson course in human flight out of 2nd story windows, in that dorm that year, one spring evening. Most of the guys thrown out of second story windows came back upstairs to get revenge, when they could find the doors again. One guy thrown out of a window, eventually underwent more than 20 operations to rebuild the shoulder, humerus, clavicle, and scapula he shattered, landing on his drunken side. Nobody called campus security, though, until after everything was settled. I was just coming in from a study date in the middle of it, and got my nose broken, purely accidentally. My roommate wound up with a dislocated jaw, some broken metacarpal bones, and some badly swollen testicles. It wasn't the worst argument in that dorm, that year, as I recall. This year, a football player at that school got murdered. You could be going to a school where they take names and kick ass, as a matter of course.

You had a food fight, and got some Dew on you. Small price to pay to learn that literally jamming your way into a group of people is not the most socially refined move you could make. If you have to ask people to make room, don't. People that want your company, or fear your wrath, don't need to be elbowed aside. If you were trying to provoke the guy, to "teach" him something, you'd have been ready, you'd "remember" it, you'd have cleaned his clock, and you wouldn't still be angry.

Instead, you got your clocked cleaned in a minor food fight, and the reason you're still mad, is that you're mad at yourself. Nothing is definitively settled, as a result of your actions, and the next time you see John and the group of people this happened amongst, they have no reason to respect or fear you, and you're back to some version of slap and tickle to make your points, unless you find better moves. Let me suggest a few:

Man up. Apologize to John. Apologize to the group. Sit away from that group, so you and others can eat in peace. Keep sitting away, unless and until those who want to join you for meals, do.

posted by paulsc 18 October | 00:50

Thank you all for your advice (and in a couple of cases, the laughs). I'm going to burn "the only asshole in the room" into my memory. That's a handy reminder.

In your shoes, I'd be wondering what exactly caused me to push John, and why.
It's pretty simple. He was being a jerk, unprovoked. I decided to return the favor. Childish, yes, I know.

paulsc, a lot of what you said is spot on, some much more minor details are not; the group of people are my friends, whom I see every day. All at the table were expecting me, and made room for me when I arrived. Except for John, who made a point of being antagonistic in his inaction.

But you're right; I am mad at myself. Because I lost tonight. I pride myself on being able to keep control of my temper under the vast majority of circumstances. But tonight I lost my temper before I even knew what hit me, in part due to the sheer unexpectedness of it all; it went from me making a sarcastic comment ("thanks for the help") and patronizing physical contact to throwing drinks and backhanding him in the face in under four seconds. I simply did not see it coming and hitting him was practically a reflex. But it was my fault for provoking him rather than ignoring his rudeness and for not knowing when to quit.

Your description of your early college years sounds terrifying. I am not, as a rule, a physical guy. I'm 5'9" and 150lbs. I'm scrawny and I've never put myself in situation that would require me to get physical to get out of. My level of physical anger is on par with that of taz. I broke things, not people. I went to the therapist because I did not want to cross the line from things to people. And part of me feels like I crossed that line tonight. So yes. I'm mad at myself. I'm going to try my best to ensure that there's only one asshole in the room from now on.

As far as apologizing, I can't seem to figure out a way to say "I'm sorry for touching your leg" that, given the broader context and that which followed, doesn't sound sarcastic.

But again, thank you all for your advice. Ranting here and reading what you all had to say really helped me cool off a bit and also gain some perspective on the situation. It's nice to have people to talk to who can suggest more than "I don't know, dude..." and "you should have kicked his ass."

posted by CitrusFreak12 18 October | 01:25

Wow, paulsc. What a shithole school.

posted by arse_hat 18 October | 01:38

CF: I agree, apologizing would go a very long way to making both of you feel better. Just apologize for "starting shit", even though you didn't.

posted by bkudria 18 October | 01:54

"... Your description of your early college years sounds terrifying. ..."

The first week of football practice was tough. After that, I knew who feared me, who hated me, and who I feared. The next 16 weeks were just pain, managed aggression, and learning to live with steroid pumped sports enthusiasts, in exchange for books, board, meals, and a 2S student deferment, which is a complete cakewalk for a kid whose draft lottery number was #162, from a home county so small that everybody with a draft lottery number less than 247, and no deferment, was drafted that year.

You learn a lot about busting heads and humps, on a daily basis, for books and meals, when the alternative is getting shot at, by people who know how. 14 guys, from my high school graduating class of 210 kids, were drafted that year. Would have been a lot more, if a lot of those with low lottery numbers, and no deferments, had waited for their notices...

posted by paulsc 18 October | 02:04

"Don't worry, I got your back."
This is not a wise thing for a girl to say to "support" a guy in an argument.

posted by matthewr 18 October | 04:06

paulsc - I have a song for you. It's by one of my all-time favourite songwriters, Gram Parsons:

My Uncle

A letter came today from the draft board
With trembling hands I read the questionnaire
It asked me lots of things about my mama and papa
Now that ain't what I call exactly fair
So I'm heading for the nearest foreign border
Vancouver may be just my kind of town
Because they don't need the kind of law and order
That tends to keep a good man underground
A sad old soldier once told me a story
About a battlefield that he was on
He said a man should never fight for glory
He must know what is right and what is wrong
So I'm heading for the nearest foreign border
Vancouver may be just my kind of town
Because they don't need the kind of law and order
That tends to keep a good man underground, yeah now,
I don't know how much I owe my uncle
But I suspect it's more than I can pay
He's asking me to sign a three-year contract
I guess I'll catch the first bus out today
So I'm heading for the nearest foreign border
Vancouver may be just my kind of town
Because they don't need the kind of law and order
That tends to keep a good man underground
That tends to keep a good man underground

posted by chuckdarwin 18 October | 04:16

Canada was never an option for me, chuckdarwin, any more than it was for hundreds of thousands of others, in similar straits. My father was career Navy, my brother was, by that time, in the Army, and my mother was a Federal employee. If I'd left the country, all of their lives, to the extent they might have shielded my actions, or even been thought to do so, would have been threatened.

Eventually, I separated a shoulder, tore up a knee, lost my college athletic scholarship, got a girl pregnant, and "volunteered" for the Naval Air Reserve, all in one crazy spring/summer.

My father and I agreed not to speak of politics, or the military, for the next 32 years. And we didn't. Not one word, although, for the sake of our families, we remained convincingly cordial, on other topics.

And he died in my arms, a couple of years ago. In the weeks and hours before his death, we came to some understandings, not all of which needed speaking.

As soon as they finish the new Northeast Florida military cemetery, I'll bury my dad's ashes, with those of my mother, as he directed me. As his honorable 20 years of Navy and Naval Air Reserve service earned. And then, finally, we'll be done, he and I, with military bullshit. And I, for one, will continue to be glad that persons living today need not make the choices of older folks, or pay attention to suggestions of old protest songs.

But all this is a long, long way from CitrusFreak12's minor dust up, and not at all pertinent to a young man feeling his oats, and feeling bad about himself on a fall evening...

My bad if all this constitutes a topic hijack.

posted by paulsc 18 October | 05:06

see new thread

posted by chuckdarwin 18 October | 05:43

As far as apologizing, I can't seem to figure out a way to say "I'm sorry for touching your leg" that, given the broader context and that which followed, doesn't sound sarcastic.

If you really want to apologize, it's not that hard to acknowledge your part in precipitating it by saying something like "Hey, I'm sorry about the whole blowup last night."

"John" sounds like the kind of person who might choose to be a jerk about it, but if you're the guy you sound like, just making that first effort towards peace (and keeping your temper if he does choose to be a jackass) might make you feel a whooooole lot better.

posted by Elsa 18 October | 10:38

Although I agree with most of what has been said above, once Mountain Dew comes in contact with skin, all bets are off. He had to have known that. That shit's like gamma radiation to David Banner. "Don't Dew me, you wouldn't like me when you Dew me."

Also, you had every reason to nudge in the table with a group of what you thought were friends. You certainly shouldn't feel that you were antagonizing anyone by doing so. I don't understand paulsc's advice on that one.

But yeah, apologize. He probably feels as bad as you do. If anything, it's at least a good opportunity to clear the air and set shit straight with John.
If he's a dick about that too, knock him out. Kidding.

posted by Hellbient 18 October | 13:02

I'm in the camp of he shouldn't have been touched--the first snarky comment would have been sufficient...and perhaps it would have been better for someone who likes him who asked to get rid of the tray.

Gah, paulsc---I knew someone who used to teach there and LOATHED it. No wonder he left.

posted by brujita 18 October | 13:21

You either need to never fight again, or fight a lot more; the problem isn't the fighting (or the not fighting) but the massive jittery adrenaline rush dropping off and leaving you feeling guilty: the guilt is 90% chemical, you have no control over it, it's just an adverse bodily reaction to the presence of all those fight hormones.

You can control that adrenaline rush and dropoff by not allowing situations to escalate that far, as many seem to say in this thread. You can also control it by fighting so often that a bout of fisticuffs doesn't spike your emotions at all; by making it routine, you remove the charge. By removing the charge, you eliminate the retreat.

I would probably go with the non-violent choice; I've been in and started enough fights that they aren't fun anymore, and now I get my adrenaline rushes breaking up fights and riding on the outside of the subway.

But you could eliminate the bad guilty feelings by just practicing (and by practice I don't mean renshuu; I mean real-life fights) until you can dispassionately dispatch your adversary and retain your tea-time calm.

It's up to you.

posted by Hugh Janus 18 October | 13:39

When you apologise (and you're going to, right? ;-P) and "John" is rude or ignores you, let it go. You've done the right thing and can move on.

posted by deborah 18 October | 13:54

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