I mean, every woman's dream must totally be to give up her career to give birth to some drunken unemployed past-expiration-date frat boy asshole's baby, rite?

I think it was unfunny, and also a fantastically misogynistic piece of antiabortion propaganda. Besides that, it was OK.

But then it's got to be me. because it has a metacritic 90+ average or something

I suspected that I would hate it, so I just didn't see it at all. Does that count?

Also, sadly, I'm not sure "misogynistic" tends to tip the critical scale downwards all that often...

I saw it wondering how I would feel, considering that I like his other movies but heard it was lame in terms of the plot line.

It was pretty good, there were a few good laughs but overall I did get a bit annoyed with how the female characters weren't all that realistic (or even likable, for that matter). If you can set aside some of the BS I think it's pretty funny, although it could have done better for the female characters by a lot.

I liked it, and certainly didn't see it as antiabortion propaganda, just as "40 Year-Old Virgin" wasn't abstinence propaganda. Regardless of the reality he had to keep the baby for the plot's sake. They barely touched on why she kept it, which I thought was cool, cuz it doesn't really matter.

I wonder if it was maybe too American for you?

Also, it was a comedy, so in my book it gets more leeway than usual. It certainly wasn't reality, but what movie is?

None of the pre-release publicity did anything to encourage me to see it.

sorry - she had to keep the baby...

They barely touched on why she kept it

she kept it because when one of the frat guys mentions "the A word" (I'm not fucking kidding, they don't even say the word, like Roe is already been overturned, it's probebly set in 2010 or something) everybody is appalled, and when the woman's mother mentions she should "take care of it" she does so in an appallingly crude manner mentioning "real babies" and stuff

it also plays a ob-gyn visit for gags, lube and all.

and it shows a fucking sonogram of an embryo as if it's already a 5 year old or something.

"8 weeks old: take good care of it", says the ob-gyn.

I mean, wtf

I downloaded it, because I like a lot of the folks who appear in it. I figured it'd be mediocre, but good for a few yuks. I wasn't disappointed. (Fave line, paraphrased: "I didn't smoke pot very much when you were growing up. Just every evening, and all day on weekends.")

oh yes and the contrast is with kindly Harold Ramis who with a sweet wise Rabbi's smile says that it's all Ok, it's a blessing and all. come on, it's so nakedly antiabortion it isn't even funny, I kept waiting for Antonin Scalia to show up for a cameo

Seconding occhiblu. I skipped it entirely. I have too many female friends who are in the "OMG WANT BABEEZ" phase of their lives that they got into fights with their boyfriends about it. I like some kids and almost no kid-propaganda.

They've said in interviews that they didn't really want to address the abortion aspect because the debate would overwhelm the plot and humor. That makes sense. Plus Apatow's not exactly a right-winger.

OH SHIT IT WAS TOTALLY BACKED BY OPERATION RESCUE

MARGARET: I sort of got the distinct impression that there was quite an anti-abortion subtext to this film, is that right?

JUDD APATOW: Well, I think as, as Seth says, if she got an abortion in the movie, the movie would be eight minutes long. So that is the main reason for the anti-abortion subtext.

SETH ROGEN: Just because it allowed us to make a movie.

JUDD APATOW: Because I...

SETH ROGEN: Not a short film.

JUDD APATOW: Because what I was interested in wasn't really the - the choice about whether or not to keep the baby, I was interested in telling the story of two people who decide to keep the baby and are trying to decide whether or not they could like each other and whether or not they would ever raise the baby together as a couple.

SETH ROGEN: Yeah.

JUDD APATOW: And the only way to get there was to have two people who were both not comfortable with the idea of getting an abortion. But I think it's really interesting, as somebody who is pro-choice, is that it's so shocking that she doesn't get an abortion.

SETH ROGEN: Yeah.

JUDD APATOW: I mean I'm not trying to make any kind of statement about what anyone should do, but it's really interesting that people act like it's such a weird choice not to get an abortion. I didn't realise that it was such a common way to go.

I mean, I think, you know, some people do, some people don't. What's, you know, what is the, you know what is the shock of either choice? Because choices are available to people and people make both choices. But it does seem to have set off a flurry of discussion about it, which is probably healthy in some way, I guess, or completely pointless.

(Knocked Up interview)

I thought it was mediocre, but I'm not entirely sure why people see it as anti-abortion.

I think you're reading way too much into it.
Yeah, she should have gotten an abortion. That would have made it a great movie.

Just because she reacted to people who conversed with her about it doesn't mean that's the reason she kept it. I thought they did a pretty good job of showing it as an personal choice.

The "real babies" comment I can totally see slipping out, especially from an older American woman. Perhaps a cliched way of showing a generational gap, but still got the point across.

The ob-gyn visit you mentioned was kinda stupid. Granted.

and it shows a fucking sonogram of an embryo as if it's already a 5 year old or something.
it's a visual medium, you can't just show a dot on a screen. You need to communicate things quickly and move on.

"8 weeks old: take good care of it", says the ob-gyn.
I don't remember exactly - was this not after she decided to keep it? If so, that seems like a reasonable thing for a Dr. to say. Plus - it's a tension tool.

was this not after she decided to keep it?

no it's right after she finds out she's pregnant, then she tells the guy (who blames her for his not putting a condom on), then they go to the ob-gyn.

she only decides later to keep it.

I have too many female friends who are in the "OMG WANT BABEEZ" phase of their lives that they got into fights with their boyfriends about it.

Oh god, seconded, thirded, whatever.

I am so so sick and tired of the "BABYBABYBABYBABY" mania that is sweeping through my friends. I swear, one more person tells me about their ovulation and I'll stab.
I mean, I've actually heard people say they're staying with someone because they think the guy will provide good genetics!

Guardian:

There is, of course, another way of looking at this subject: that the new genre of romantic comedies are not really upbeat, coming-of-age motion pictures about young male schmucks who are saved by the love of a good woman, but heart-rending tragedies about beautiful young women who are doomed to spend the rest of their lives with juvenile, not especially good-looking dorks...

The other point that Knocked Up seems to make is that women, even the ones who work in television, exist for no other reason than to help men grow up, if necessary by having babies. As Denby notes, this is an idea that has been kicking around since the early Renaissance, when Dante Alighieri frantically sought salvation through the ministrations of his beloved Beatrice: men need women to inspire them to the loftiest creative and moral heights; otherwise they will fail miserably. But unlike Rogen, at least Dante had a job.

I thought it was funny. Granted, it wasn't realistic, not to me, for the way that I live my life, but I laughed a lot in the theatre.

"take good care of it" coming from a pro-abortion ob-gyn takes on a wholly different meaning.

Apatow's not exactly a right-winger.
Internal error #1
ˆsubtle abortion joke?

I didn't hate it but it did make me pine for the days when a bunch of people would come running up to you and say "Holy fucking shit see this movie it's hilarious" and then you saw it and laughed a whole bunch.

That movie was fairly weak on jokes.

It was funny, but I think it was a little too American-centric for you to get it. It was more of a play on the new class system, though I hate to use that term, that is arising or has arisen in our current generation. There's basically those who have chosen the career and professional path, and those that have not. Where before you had the bumbling blue collar worker ("One of these days, bam, pop, straight to the moon") and the insightful female, such roles are no longer defined. Except now the financial situation which drove the traditional comedy is no longer in existence. It is almost completely egalitarian, notice how there was no need for the two to be together.

Where sitcoms of old the woman almost needed the man to live above the poverty level (see: The Apartment) or to do a job that wasn't menial, these two did not need each other. Being companions was merely secondary, an almost existential condition. It was an odd couple pairing. The so-called losers were from the same socio-economic strata, we did no get the idea that their father's worked in a coal mine or anything like that. In fact, it is almost explicit in stating that had he not pursued his "dream job", which was something the audience was meant not to accept, in order for it not to appeal to bohemian upper middle class families of the starving artist being acceptable. He seemed to realize that he would not do better than his father without going the straight career rout that what's-her-name took. Indeed he seemed to be living the American Dream, the years after college when he was suppose to find himself and figure out what he wanted to do. This is more literal than figurative, that by not choosing a career path and being financially sound right of college seemed to doom him from all but the most demeaning jobs. We all have friends that for, one reason or another, did not get that job right of college and spend more than a few years living the college lifestyle. Except instead of being a sympathetic Al Bundy figure who means well and is doing the best to take care of his family, he now seems almost repulsive.

If anything he is the antithesis of a frat guy, who is now doing consulting or accounting somewhere. Katherine Heigl played the straight role, the sorority sister. Notice the seen where she's almost embarrassed by running into her college friends. Far from being misogynist, she's breaking the norms: by accepting less than perfection, by not having the abortion and making due with what she has.

I didn't see any growing up in the film. He didn't read the parenting books, he barely tried to get his finances straight and seemed to treat the whole thing as nothing more than a broken bong that he needs to get around to replacing.

Beyond that, far more telling was the subplot of the married couple. Stifling and made to conform to a soap opera facsimile of married life. She couldn't even imagine her husband not cheating on her, because that would be less real to her than a fantasy baseball league.

I saw it, much like 40 Year Old Virgin, a harsh condemnation on the middle class who does not strive to be middle class. Unlike Easy Rider and the counterculture films of a previous generation, this is seen as being akin to lazy, inept and socially stunted. That one needs to "grow up" to someone attain a sort of media create self-actualization. It seems one can only be counter-culture so far as one stays within what is accepted as counter-culture.

Hi geoff! What took you so long?

I haven't seen Knocked Up yet. Believe it or not, I haven't seen any Apatow movies yet. Which one should I start with?

What took you so long?

This place is scary, I had no idea what went on here.

I would suggest renting "Not Just the Very Best of Larry Sanders" (or search on Youtube, Larryxx where the xx are numbers 01-87 or how many episodes there are). He directed at least one and wrote for more. Really top notch. I never saw a Apatow movie in theaters, so I always was jaded by the hype. They're good, but only because romantic comedies have sucked since, I don't know, Annie Hall.

Thanks, geoff- NOW I'm interested in seeing it.

There's a lot of plates of beans at this buffet.

I agree that her abortion decision was skipped through lightly and unconvincingly - but can you really have a truly convincing depiction of a woman's decision about whether to keep her baby in a comedy film?

More important for me was the complete lack of chemistry between the couple. Their characters hardly developed at all throughout the film - at the end, they were still more-or-less the same people as when they met in the club, except now they apparently (and utterly unconvincingly) love each other.

Also, there was more product placement in Knocked Up than anything else I've ever seen.

But I liked the pair of conversations between the two guys: the first one in the park, about the husband's inability to just be happy like his kids are, and the second one in Vegas, about being unable to accept his wife's love. For a light, Hollywood romantic-comedy film, they were pretty good. The bouncer's speech was just bizarre, though, and very hard to take seriously.

One film you absolutely have to see, when it comes out in America in early December, is Atonement. It's brilliant, whether you've read the book (Ian McEwan, Booker prize etc) or not.

On non-preview: yes, jon, it's just a comedy film, but don't you want your comedy films to have characters that are at least moderately convincing?

On non-preview: yes, jon, it's just a comedy film, but don't you want your comedy films to have characters that are at least moderately convincing?

It's a nice bonus, but generally I just want them to make me laugh.

I only want to see No Country For Old Men

I just want to live long enough for Get Smart to come out on DVD again. New movies, like new music hold no appeal for me.

I only want to see No Country For Old Men

Yes sir. I actually hadn't heard much about it until someone asked a question about the trailer in AskMe, and I watched it a couple of times, foaming at the mouth. I think I even answered the AskMe question - it was about the cow gun. I can't wait to see the movie now. Nov 21!

iconomy - Talladega Nights is brilliant, IMO. I'm aware that not everybody thinks so, though. Disc 1 of Freaks and Geeks is really funny. Haven't seen all of them yet, but unfortunately it has been kinda downhill from there. Still funny, but not nearly as fresh.

What geoff and matthewr said. Abortion had to be addressed but set aside so that the movie could be A) funny and B) longer than 20 minutes.

I enjoyed it, but not deeply. There was lots of wooden acting in it -- Harold Ramis in particular; you could practically watch his eyes scan a Telepromptr -- and not nearly enough laughs.

More important for me was the complete lack of chemistry between the couple.

I think that was intentional -- they were supposed to be awkward and poorly matched. I do agree with you that neither character seemed to develop much through the course of he film.


ico: Superbad was a lot of fun, and it's probably in the cheap theaters by now.

There were things about it which I didn't like --the misogynist language, the reasons given why the sisters weren't let into the club the second time rather than the real one: the older sister was being a bitch--but as a whole I liked it. Alison is told to lose weight; she cries that she'll lose her job because she's pregnant,but that doesn't actually happen. I inferred that she decided to keep the baby when she breaks down after seeing the sonogram and the gyno assumed she and Ben were a couple.

I only saw the last hour of 40-year old Virgin (on Austrian tv), but it annoyed me that the woman with the shower head-- who wanted to make sure she was turned on before sex-- was depicted as scary and that even though there's a teen session which discusses foreplay Andy doesn't engage in it when he is finally depicted having sex--he just gets on top and sticks it in.

I liked Superbad, though there wouldn't have been a movie without the alcohol (however, the hottie who doesn't drink needs to realize that her real friends will show up at her parties because they enjoy her company, not because of her choice of refreshments).

SPOILER


The miscarriage in Citizen Ruth was more of a cop-out than the plot of Knocked Up.

I thought it was pretty fucking funny, but I suppose I'm pretty much the embodiment of Apatow's target audience.

Right after I saw this movie I almost posted about it, because it bothered me so much. I did laugh a lot, and found it sweet in spots, and it made me think here and there, and then too it made me disgusted here and there. I think there are some points to be made about an anti-abortion stance -- not because of the decision to have a baby, but as Matteo points out, how the decision is depicted - the way the conversations around the decision were written. Those conversations were among the most shallow and primitive treatments of a reproductive decision I've ever seen depicted, particularly in a movie that's about a reproductive decision. It was also absolutely never explained why a young woman with a great career and years of good health and fertility ahead of her would decide to have this baby. It simply did not accord with anything in her character biography or in the personality you see shown onscreen, and it would be a pretty rare woman in her position that would make that decision. I think that plot point really needed much, much more justification in order to convince me she was acting rationally.

But the things that disturbed me most were the messages about relationships - that career success isn't enough, that unless women discover their 'softer side' they can't be complete humans, and in fact that luuuurrve is SO important that it's fine to settle for someone who falls completely short of your expectations of equal partnership. I highly recommend reading David Denby's excellent consideration of this movie in the New Yorker, which summed up the way I felt about it perfectly. He contrasts this sort of relationship movie with screwball comedies, in which verbal sparring and equivalent power bring men and women into relationships of equal respect along with individual independence. Though "Knocked Up" afforded some laughs, and I know the director is trying to grasp something about what it means to be a good and mature person, I still had trouble with Apatow's movie, which ended up being pageant of wishful sentimentality sprinkled with penis jokes and warm-heared depictions of ignorant everyday misogyny. They can't help it, poor men, they're such doofuses, they really can't handle themselves, and they just need the love of a good woman to straighten them out and clean them up.

Miko, I loved that article. Thanks!

If you think about it, "having a sense of humor" has less to do with what style of humor you enjoy and literally means: being able to tell when something is intended to be a joke. Being able to *sense* humor. At all.

The thing is that humor isn't simple. When we reject certain kinds of humor, we're rejecting the thinking that makes them supposedly funny.

One thing humor is, psychologically, is a means of rendering nervousness or anxiety or frustration tolerable. It is used as a sidelong means of talking about things that are disturbing or uncomfortable. Sometimes we share the same worldview about what's disturbing, and sometimes we don't, which accounts for a lot of what different people do and don't find funny.

I can sense that there is an attempt at humor in a mean ethnic joke, for instance -- therefore by that definition, I have a "sense" of humor. But I might still object to the assumptions on which the joke plays. aND I might object even though I might, at the same time, laugh.

I don't believe that the enjoyment of humor requires the turning off of the brain's critical faculties. A joke built on an ugly, immature, or mean-spirited sentiment is still ugly, immature, or mean, no matter how funny. "Humor" has been used as a social weapon regularly, and it certainly reflets values. It's pretty serious stuff, actually. To tell someone they have "no sense of humor" because they don't appreciate a certain joke is to duck the issue of what the supposed humor of the joke is built on, and instead turn the focus onto the person who's not laughing. It doesn't mean "you don't understand what humor is," it means "I can see that you don't share my worldview, and I'm going to try to make you feel bad about it by suggesting that the problem is with you."