Okay, so you know how Christians pass around a collection plate at church? Jews don't do that because (a) you don't handle money on the Sabbath and (b) their concept of what Christians call tithe is to give to charity, not to the religious institution.

So they pay an annual membership fee to the synagogue, which usually includes the cost of "tickets" for high holiday services. But people who aren't members -- usually unmarried adults -- will pay specifically for tickets to these services.

These fees go to pay the rabbis' and cantors' salaries and to upkeep of the building, etc.

So it's just like church, only no tacky handing around of a collection plate.

PS. The high holiday services are overcrowded because that is when everyone shows up -- like Christmas and Easter at church but worse. People you've never seen before will turn up on those days and the overflow seating will generally go into other rooms in the synagogue.

Also, if you can't afford the cost of tickets, you can consult the rabbi or another person at the synagogue in advance, and they will generally try to find a seat for you.

Services or seders?

Hey s_m, you know that Christian denominations have "suggested tithes" for church members, right? It's like a membership fee - the church uses some of the money to run the church, and some of it goes up to the national church organization (if the church is a member of one) to pay for their expenses.

Hmmm, this is all news to me. Interesting. How reasonable are the rates? Does anyone actually get turned away for lack of funds?

Whether or not a collection plate is "tacky" is open to interpretation and personal preference. I never cared for it, but back in my church going days (raised First Baptist, now pretty much agnostic) a lot of the congregation liked talking about the "Free Spirit of Giving", etc. They seemed to like it. One church we went to did have a problem with an usher who had been helping himself to the offerings, he admitted to about $40,000 over a period of years, it was probably more.

"Tacky," wow. Cool!

Hey s_m, you know that Christian denominations have "suggested tithes" for church members, right?

The thing is, they are "suggested", not required, at least not in any of the churches I went to.

I have never been to a church that has a "suggested tithe" amount. Generally, they all stick with the 10% of income thing. And like King of Prontopia says, it's suggested, not required.

Yeah, but if you're broke, you don't put anything in the plate. No one looks at you funny.

The synagogue that's advertising at my YMCA wants $75 a head. I haven't done any shopping around, so I don't know how reasonable that is.

This synagogue was trying to get all the secular Jews back into the fold. "You don't have to be a conservative Jew to practice conservative Judaism" or some such pitch.

I'm familiar with the tzedakah concept- it comes up a lot here in Berkeley. Also, Rabbi Michael Lerner's big on it, and his writings are very popular around here.

I have never been to a church that has a "suggested tithe" amount...they all stick with the 10% of income thing.

Isn't that a suggested tithing amount? I mean, it wasn't published in the weekly bulletin or anything, but they did talk about a member's responsibility towards their church, and reciprocally the church's responsibility towards its members, during the membership classes. I never became a member of my particular church, but a lot of my friends and family did.

Note that I'm talking about church members, not church guests. IIRC, member responsibilites (at my old Presbyterian church) included attending service, volunteering (service readings, sunday school, soup kitchen, etc), tithing, and joining the occasional committee.

I don't really see what's so wrong with paying for a church service. Do rabbis live on bread and water? Do they sleep on angelic clouds?

It just seems like it's designed to keep people out! Do they have so many people they can afford to exclude the poor ones? My family's full of priests- I know they don't live on bread and water. $75 a head? (There is a group rate for families- $150.) That's a chunk of change.

Are Jewish services discretionary? Meaning, unlike Christianity, wherein if you're a good Christian, you HAVE to go to services?

The catholic church we attended when I was a child used to send home a newsletter of sorts once a month. I hated it so much - they listed every parishioner on the last pages and then next to their names were the amount they had donated to church in mass that month. Looking back on it, I can't believe how crass it was.

I was filled with shame every time it came, because we always had a big fat zero next to our names. My father didn't believe it was anyone's business how much we donated, so he would give in unmarked envelopes. Of course, he was right, and the church was wrong in trying to strong arm the parishioners into giving more by publishing their donations, but as a kid I didn't understand that - all I knew was that every Monday after the newletter came home, I would walk into my catholic school classroom and everyone would make fun of me and call me names. Just another in my exceedingly long list of distasteful catholic school memories. I could write a book.

The high holiday services are overcrowded because that is when everyone shows up

Yeah - my friend who's also an Episcopal minister calls them C&Es - Christmas and Easters. The people who only show up twice a year, all dressed up and stuffing big bucks into the collection plate.

Isn't that a suggested tithing amount?

Well, it isn't the same way $75 a head is. I think a percentage model makes more sense, especially if your congregation is all over the age map- college students and old shut-in ladies might not be able to afford $75, while a rich businessman with 7 kids might find $150 to be a great bargain.

And s_r, how does the payment thing work, exactly? Do they check tickets at the door? If you don't pay, are you refused entry?

It seems like any church charging $75 bucks is a church that doesn't want s_r to attend (or me, for that matter).

Sometimes I wished that they'd charge for important services when I was a kid. C&E's always took my favorite pew!

TPS, it looks like you buy tickets and they collect them at the door.

iconomy, my mom says that when she was little, in the 1950s, you got a little token when you paid your tithe and went to confession. No token, no communion. SO screwed up! But that has never been the case since I was little.

Are Jewish services discretionary? Meaning, unlike Christianity, wherein if you're a good Christian, you HAVE to go to services?

Yes, with all but the most devout forms of Judaism, services are discretionary. There's no heaven, so there's not much to threaten/reward you with. Buy oy, the guilt! And yeah if you're broke (or a paying member of the congregation already) you can go no matter what. There's a shift lately though, as I understand it. Places that are keen on newer members are letting folks on for free on HHD.

Even congregations that feel compelled to charge for tickets, draw the line at actually turning people away. Congregation B'nai Israel, a small Conservative congregation in Danbury, Conn., charges for tickets, but doesn't check for them at the door. "We've been doing it for years," says Rabbi Nelly Altenburger. "We have a number of 'regulars' who always show up, and there's always some kvetching."

small_ruminant, no way. A token? I would love to see one, just out of curiosity.

Oh - the reference to unmarked envelopes that I made, for anyone not familiar. The catholic church (and a few other denoms too, I think) hires a private company to print envelopes for each family/parishioner, which the church in turn sells to you for your convenience. Each envelope has your name printed on it, and the week of the year. Plus there are special envelopes for extra donations and holidays and building funds and memorials and saint days and....damn, just about any old thing. It's a big fat box of envelopes. I hope I never see another one!

Our church provides printed envelopes. They don't charge for 'em; they just give 'em out to everyone (which I think is silly- why provide them for people, like me, who are just going to throw them away?)

I remember the time I pledged to tithe at my Catholic church. I got "bills" every month, asking for 1/12 of what I'd pledged annually. At least they didn't call for the next five years after I made the pledge, like the public TV station.

I've never understood the "membership" deal in protestantism. Well, I understand it, but think it's silly. In the Catholic churches, you show up, you're a member.

(and a few other denoms too, I think)

Am I evil if I first read that as "a few other demons too"?

iconomy - I was an assistant treasurer at a small Methodist church for a while. That place was kept afloat by one member who made her tithes, and then donated the same amount anonymously.

Oh, yeah, and to be on-topic, I've heard of the practice. I don't see tickets as being intended to keep out the riffraff, just a way to say "are you sure you want to come"? Hell, maybe it works in reverse "well, if you don't want to shell out some dough to help your rabbi, don't come then."

My father was a (very strict, very Old School Calvinist/Jonathan Edwards/hellfire and brimstone) minister, and he talked a lot about the importance of tithing ten percent of your income. Even if it wasn't strictly required, it was impressed upon everyone in the congregation that they were commanded by God to give at least that amount. While none of the info was public, the elders and deacons would discuss "problem" members who didn't tithe enough.

(My boyfriend, who grew up Mormon, says the bishop -- basically a volunteer/appointed administrator and minister type -- of each group meets with families once a year and tells them, based on their earnings reports, how much they owe.)

Jewish congregations are different. s_m, is the one advertising with you Chabad by any chance? They're very big on proselytizing. Anyway, if people have financial difficulties they can simply talk with the rabbi, who will almost certainly make sure that those in need can get in for free, possibly exchanging some sort of service to the synagogue for membership.

At Orthodox synagogues, they do not check for tickets because members are not supposed to carry things or write on high holidays. They may have a list at the door, but they can't check off names on it.

I enjoyed any number of free meals at the campus Chabad when I was in college, and the services there were of course free as well. Another Chabad near me does charge for high holiday services and certain meals, but they are also very willing to waive fees.

What I'm saying is, it's not as bad as it sounds.

At least they didn't call for the next five years after I made the pledge, like the public TV station.

Or some colleges! I made a $15 pledge to the alumni fund, and they must have spent much more than that sending me letters reminding me to give it to them.

Our church had pre-printed envelopes, but they didn't charge for them! Getting those differentiated members from regular attenders. Regular attendees like me had to use the pew-envelopes.

In the Catholic churches, you show up, you're a member.

Well, I'M not a member, because I haven't been baptized or taken confession or Catholic communion ever. But I get your point.

In many protestant churches, committees and democratic elections are pretty big deals (or is this just Presbyterianism?) So members of the church get voting rights, while regular attendees don't get to vote. That's the main difference. I'm assuming that Catholic churches aren't big on the whole "voting" thing.

I've never understood the "membership" deal in protestantism.

In my mind, it's a very basic difference between (most) Protestant denominations and the Catholic Church. At least in the churches I'm familiar with, if you're a "member," that means that you get to vote on important church business (like buying or selling property), and some hold elections for the offices of elder and deacon.

(FYI, the elders and deacons of a church function something like the Board of Directors of a corporation, while the minister functions as CEO. He/she runs the day-to-day operations, and leads the church, but the elders can fire him/her and overrule on matters of policy and such.)

Only those who have exhibited a desire to become part of the church community are eligible for membership, but at least the church has some degree of democracy built into it. In the Catholic church, in most cases the parishioners have no real say in who leads their parish, or in any church policy or activity.

Am I evil if I first read that as "a few other demons too"?

No, not evil. Just lysdexic ;)

deadcowdan, in any of the Catholic Churches I've been involved with, there has been a parish council voted on by members of the parish that had a say in financial matters and the day-to-day running of the church.

They didn't have a say in pastor selection though.

They didn't have a say in pastor selection though.

That's a shame. "Tryin' out the new pastor" month was always my favorite month. "This guy was too boring. That guy was too young. That OTHER one was *gasp* unmarried!"

"OMFG TEH GREEDY JEWS!!!"

coming next: a "OMFG THEY DON'T EAT PORK!!!!?????" thread

I appreciate this analysis of the Jew as, like, an aardvark, it's very Borat-like

Thanks, matteo, you're spot-on about the approach here. I tried to say the same thing, but erased it a dozen times, since my way of disagreeing is often quite, uh, unpopular. I guess I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Jew.

When they come for me, I'll be long gone.

Not to butt into the Judeo-Christian thread here, but Buddhist talks/retreats almost always have a suggested donation, though you won't be turned away for lack of funds. Monks and temple upkeep are completely funded by the laypeople. Additionally, there is the perception of value - people think that if something is given away free, it's not worth much. Attendance generally goes UP if a fee is charged.

Since I doubt there's any popular perception of Buddhists as greedy, this information should also diminish any perception of Jews as greedy.

Your shock?! is misplaced. I've walked into services for free many times, at synagogues where I was not a member. They don't want to turn anyone away who wants to attend High Holy Day sesrvices. At the synagogue where my parents are members - they pay a yearly membership fee and the passes for services come in the mail.