What the fuck is Eideteker doing in every thread??? Gahhhh!

Oh dear. Eideteker finally got the lopitofamy? or is it hadjiboy? he's a hadjigirl now?

I'd say for women it's the same thing: Multiple gender role demands, especially ones that limit personal potential.

The hardest part is feeling you have somehow failed if you don't live up to the expectations of people in your life and in the broader society that you be at once: sexually alluring; pure and wholesome; capable and reliable; independent and enmeshed; career-oriented, family-oriented, and self-oriented; emotionally/morally superior; intellectually inferior; loyal and loving; placating, nurturing, and supportive; and content with less recognition for your efforts.

I'd say a lot of the difficulty of being female is the constant message from somewhere or other - family, school, friends, SOs, co-workers - that others always come before you, in every consideration, and that your role is to please and support, and then to recede. When that doesn't happen, you start to hear the predictable insulting words.

I don't really live that way and know few others who do, but when you don't accept the role expectations there is almost always clear negative feedback from some quarter or other. Learning to shrug that off and toughen up involves rejecting a lot of the expectations women are raised with that are supposed to 'make you a woman', so that there are always points in taking a different path where you question your own femininity, value, and worthiness.

Then there's the cumulative expense over a lifetime of a monthly box or two of Tampax at $3.99 a box. And annual gynecological exams. And bras (in which the underwire sometimes pops out and pokes you painfully). And the responsibility for preventing unwanted pregnancy.

Periods. They suck.

On the other hand, multiple orgasms are kinda cool.

Oh, true.

Bad parts of being a man: expectations, kind of like Miko said, you're expected to be a provider, protector, a warrior, a sex machine and a paragon of virtue and joe sensitive. Plus there's when you wear tight pants, your sack sticks to you, not fun.

Best parts: peeing standing up. women. Having a deep voice.

The hardest part is feeling you have somehow failed if you don't live up to the expectations of people in your life and in the broader society that you be at once

Yup.

what Miko said.

oh and the side effects of the Pill. that too.

being unable to cut my hair short like i'd prefer to for the simple fact that it's convenient, because it makes guys label me with things like 'butch' and 'dyke'. note that i'm not the sort of girl who looks cute and pixie-ish with short hair. i just look mannish. how come i can't be viewed as straight/hetero *and* keep my hair manageable, hmm?

Pretty much what Miko said, for me. Trying to find a line between independent and caring that works for me, which is hard because there are so many people calling you a bitch or a nag if you go beyond their comfort zone or expectations and walking all over you if you stay quiet -- and then telling you that being the silent martyr caretaker is what women "want" (evolution and religion says so, doncha know!) so why are you complaining when you feel misused?

And then, after doing my best to sort through the cultural conditioning and figure out what I want, having to ignore the hurtful rhetoric that goes along with doing what I want rather than ceding my wishes to what others want. (And a great deal of the time, at least some of that rhetoric's coming from my own insecurities as well.)

And a large part of that, and something I'm trying to figure out a way to comes to terms with, is feeling like I need to read everyone's mind and actively work to get them what they want before they even have to ask, and if I don't, then I'm being willful or difficult or selfish or uncaring or, really, "unfeminine." It's the running grocery list in my head, the running tally of which friends can interact with which other friends, the running spreadsheet of what in the house needs to be cleaned and when, the running balance of which friends are owed social time.... I don't know. I think a lot of what I look for in feminism is a way out of those head games, a way of not having to spend all my time and energy worrying about other people, or even worrying about whether I should be worrying about other people.

Cleaning the kitchen's not that big a deal. The cultural consequences of trying to fairly split housework -- and childcare, and emotional caretaking -- quickly becomes a huge deal.

And I know that men have the expectation of financially providing for their families, which can also be limiting. But I think the expectation that women will emotionally provide for all their family's needs is just hugely stifling, and hugely hard to confront and deal with. Partly because "emotional caretaking" is not something that has an end, or any limits.

Plus, there's just the way that the media and institutions play into and encourage those insecurities -- doctors dismissing real concerns because historically there's not been any real study into how women's bodies actually work, the stupid "day care is bad for kids" study that just came out and for which the media is often conveniently omitting that "day care" was defined as any time the kid wasn't with the mother (apparently fathers are day care now), and just the constant constant constant cultural assumption that women's choices are up for debate and comment and that women's time is up for grabs. That we're not really independent people so much as a means for others to get the care they need.

(I recently read someone saying she's trying to teach her son that he needs to respectfully ask for her attention rather than demand it by interrupting her, because she suspects that a lot of the assumption that women's work/time is not important and that women must be constantly available to men comes from mothers constantly being available to their kids... I thought it was interesting. Even if that's not the cause, I do think it can be the dynamic.)

Somewhat on these topics, I liked this post by Hugo Schwyzer and the follow-up and comments at Pandagon.

That's a little rambly... still on my first cup of coffee.

It just struck me that a fair amount of the above could be summarized as: Despite making up a majority of the world population, being told that your concerns, priorities, and lives are not of interest to the world at large, and instead represent some sort of exotic "special interest group" that can be dissected, debated, and dismissed.

Thinking you are appreciated, only to find someone is "taking a shot" ("You can't blame me for trying."), and the other random victimizations of day to day life, and the lack of muscle building ability and upper body strength in the face of male attackers.

This article is also great:

Boyfriends or not, a deeper question for Esther and Colby is how they negotiate their identities as young women. They have grown up watching their mothers, and their friends’ mothers, juggle family and career. They take it for granted that they will be able to carve out similar paths, even if it doesn’t look easy from their vantage point.

They say they want to be both feminine and assertive, like their mothers. But Colby made the point at lunch that she would rather be considered too assertive and less conventionally feminine than “be totally passive and a bystander in my life.”

Esther agreed. She said she admired Cristina, the spunky resident on “Grey’s Anatomy,” one of her favorite TV shows.

“She really stands up for herself and knows who she is, which I aspire to,” Esther said.

Cristina is also “gorgeous,” Esther laughed. “And when she’s taking off her scrubs, she’s always wearing cute lingerie.”

Assertive *and* available, independent *and* enmeshed, smart *and* hot...

Which reminded me of one of my mother's first comments upon visiting the Harvard campus: "Can't these girls put on some make-up???"

It's ok to achieve, as long as you're still attractive to men. Not being so is a moral failing.

I'll stop posting now!

For me, I think it's being expected to act like a man at work. By which I mean, women are supposed to be sexy and emotionally transparent -- these are considered good in some circumstances. Then we're also supposedly weak and vulnerable and gossipy and not rational.

And so we go to work in professional environments, and when we're there we have to be more manly than men. We can't show emotion, we can't wear anything that might possibly expose legs or midriff or breasts, though most clothes nowadays are made to do just that.

There's this expectation that you will play the man game, that you won't complain or you'll be seen as a whiner, that you won't cry or you'll be seen as weak, that you won't ever admit to being human in any way. You're expected to be a robot, but meanwhile you're dealing with other men and women and all sorts of interpersonal crap and manipulation and you have to navigate it without seeming like you care.

If you're working for a bunch of old white men, you won't work your way up unless you can stop being female while at the office. Or at least "female" in the way men seem to perceive that word. Additionally, you'll never join the good ole boys, no matter what you do, so it's going to be a pain in the ass to climb your way up that ladder.

Besides which, as a woman you might get married (not serious about your work), pregnant (don't care about your work at all), or become a caretaker for an elderly parent (that's what you get for hiring a woman to do a man's job).

Then there's looking forward to being married and having children and knowing that, no matter how feminist you are and how feminist your husband is, you'll do the majority of the child-rearing and PTA-joining, you'll do the bulk of the house-cleaning and generally be keeping things running on the homefront. You know that if you can hardly handle one job in which you're expected to work 48-hour days without complaining, you'll soon have to handle about 12 jobs, still without complaining and never asking for anything so simple as time off for a sick kid, because then you'll never get anywhere.

This is hyperbole, but it's not that far off.

Also, breasts suck. They get swollen and they hurt and you can't buy button-down shirts that fit properly because if you button them up you end up with a weird gaping hole right where your boobs are.

listening to other women ; )

and bras... bras are a pain

My outsider's perspective on this:

The worst part of being a woman is the bullshit notion that women HAVE to be married, HAVE to be in relationships.

Or else their lives aren't complete. Or something equally idiotic.

Lots of creepy, fucked-up guys have girlfriends because of this bullshit notion.

Yes. Lots of people have SOs because of that bullshit notion.

It's not enough of a reason, not a good basis for partnering at all.

I dunno. Creepy fucked up people need love, too, I guess.

I get a little tired of people assuming I don't know about or like sports.

Giving all your lovin' to just one man.

Then there's looking forward to being married and having children and knowing that, no matter how feminist you are and how feminist your husband is, you'll do the majority of the child-rearing and PTA-joining, you'll do the bulk of the house-cleaning and generally be keeping things running on the homefront. You know that if you can hardly handle one job in which you're expected to work 48-hour days without complaining, you'll soon have to handle about 12 jobs, still without complaining and never asking for anything so simple as time off for a sick kid, because then you'll never get anywhere.

*hugs mom*

Worst part about being a chick? Crying at inopportune times. I hate it when tears well up in my eyes when I am pissed off. I always feel like it undermines my argument, but I can't help it, because I'm a girl.
Best part about being a chick? Boobs. Love mine.

What Miko said. Plus dominant contemporary Historical and Cultural context being from a white male European perspective. (not WHITEMALEIST)


On a personal level - an it's just me level - worst is menstruation hassles and dealing with auto mechanics. Best is high heels and multiple orgasms.

IANAW, but I guess the following things would annoy the hell out of me..
Dude, Eyes upwards. I'm talking with my mouth here. Not my tits.

Expectations: Be a good worker, a good mother, be one of the boys, be beautiful and independent, be in control of your emotions, be soft, be hard, be understanding of men. Love all women because you are woman. Desire children, have children, know instinctively how to mother those children. Be empathic and above all, be more moral than any man is expected to be.

Solidarity: I really wouldn't want to be expected to like and get on with every woman I work with or meet or read about. I wouldn't want to be every womans sister. I wouldn't want to be deemed liberated just because I was a woman. I'd want to make my own choices, good or bad and not have them automatically lumped into a "good for womankind", "bad for womankind" category.

Aspiration: It'd really fuck me off that "being emotional" was seen as a womanly / weak thing. So what if my tears are closer to my eyes. That's not a weakness, that's a difference. The fact that men continue to judge women based on a male template is arrogant in the extreme.

But yeah - the multiple orgasm thing'd be cool. Although I suspect even women's single orgasms are much more fun than mens orgasms. Women definitely seem to have more fun in the sack than me. *Shakes fist at women*

On being a man.

You know, it's pretty good being a man. I don't really have any complaints. And I pretty much get to do what I want when I want.

The whole "how to be sensitive & yet not be sensitive" thing took a bit of getting used to but it really wasn't that difficult. Also, for a while I was angry about the media portraying men as two-timing, inept neanderthals but I can't even be bothered getting angry at that any more. "Ug, Ug, Ug: Me want pussy." Nah - Don't care.

No, being a man is pretty sweet. Except (as previously mentioned) for the lack of multiple orgasms.

Reminds me of the old joke.

God is finishing up Creation and handing out the last few attributes to Adam and Eve.

"That's right, I've got a couple things left," God says, rummaging around in his bag of heavenly tricks. "These aren't crucial or anything, but they'll make life on earth a little nicer, and I'm pretty proud of them. Just two left, so it's one for each of you, okay? Here we go. Here's the first one: the ability to pee standing up. Who wants it?"

"Oh, man, ME!" Says Adam. "MEMEMEMEME! Ooo! Ooo! ME! ME!"

"Allright, already," says God. "It's yours. Sheesh. Man can now pee standing up."

"Yesssss! AWESOME," Adam says, strutting around proudly and smirking over at Eve.

"Okay," says God. "Guess the multiple orgasms will go to the womren, then."

Although I suspect even women's single orgasms are much more fun than mens orgasms. Women definitely seem to have more fun in the sack than me. *Shakes fist at women*

Don't curse, seanyboy. Be thankful you've had women who will share it with you. I have the suspicion that even today, there are women who fake it, maybe even not really knowing it.

I've had men tell me "I've never been with a woman who didn't orgasm from intercourse" and then freak the heck out (ARE YOU OKAAAY!?!?!) when confronted with my screaming and crying. . .so I just gotta think . . .someone isn't telling the truth out there.

Also, maybe because it's not a given, it's a bigger deal. I don't know.

I sometimes think men make too much of a big deal out of expecting women to have orgasms every time they have sex. I like to really get into it and enjoy myself without my partner telling me to tell him when "it's" happening. There are times when orgasms sort of sneak up on me, there are times when I don't have them, and there are times when I have several. Add to all this the fact that I have several different kinds (depending on stimulation) and it gets confusing and distracting when someone "insists" on "making sure" I get mine. Just go with it! Trust me, if I don't enjoy myself, you will know!

Plus, not every woman reacts to orgasms in the same way. Some are quiet, some are loud, some are in the middle (from what I've gathered from girl talk). No wonder us women are so hard for you guys to figure out!

On the other hand, multiple orgasms are kinda cool.
Well, it's cool to give them, too. Or facilitate them or whatever the PC term is.

I get a little tired of people assuming I don't know about or like sports.
I get tired of people assuming I could give a flying fuck about football.

The worst thing about being a man is the conflict between feeling responsible for providing for my family, making decisions, being the "head of the household" the way I was brought up and being this caring, sensitive soul the way we are told to these days. I know you can do both and I try to and I am also not expressing this well, but I think you know what I mean (well, those around my age certainly do), but I feel this constant conflict within myself to be two different things that "society" tells me I should be and neither one of them fits me. It is easy to say "fuck off" to the world when you are single, but having kids not only complicates things but also means that decisions about how you live your life affect other people much more.

Yes. Lots of people have SOs because of that bullshit notion.

It's not enough of a reason, not a good basis for partnering at all.

Yeah, you have a point. Both men and women are subject to this cultural imperative, just as men and women are judged harshly for being overweight. But it's worse for women, I think.

Another thing that sucks about being a woman:

Asshats who get in womens' personal space, complete fucking strangers on the street, and command them to

SMILE!

SMILE!

SMILE!

That always pisses me off when I see it happening. It's a total fucking intrusion. You never see men commanding other men, strangers on the street, that way. It's sexist as hell.

Not being able to go wherever I damn well please and have my right to be left alone respected--and sexist butches (like the Greenpeace troll the other day) are just as much to blame for this. When a lesbian harasses another woman, it's a betrayal.


Glass houses......

A betrayal? More like the every day crap of being harassed as commonplace in the first place.

Lesbians get harassed for being women, gay and their race if they are not white. It should NOT be passed on to other women.

If I hadn't just been spit on and cursed at in the subway by some cokehead (after having my tits mashed), perhaps I would have quoted judge Brandeis--as I did sometime ago on mefi--to the Greenpeace chick instead of blowing up at her.

i once had an eighty year old woman try to tongue me.
i wasn't extra offended that it was a woman.
i was disturbed that someone i knew as a nice little old lady tried to tongue me, at a very inopportune moment at that.

Is she in mudpuppie's back yard now?

She was slightly taller than three feet.
She's dead now.

Especially dead if she's in mudpuppie's backyard now.

jason's_planet is a fucking hypocrite

jason's_planet is a fucking hypocrite
posted by brujita 02 April | 23:32

Wha...?

If you have a personal beef, take it off-site. Nothing he's said in this thread warrants a call-out, in my opinion. Maybe I'm obtuse, but this sounds like something that needs to be dealt with out of the public eye.

All of jasons_planet's comments in this thread have seemed reasonable to me. And I'm a sensitive woman.

My apologies to taz for making this issue public--I was in a rotten mood last night.