MetaChat - So what would you do now, if you were Yahoo?

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02 February 2007

So what would you do now, if you were Yahoo? Pardon my fascination with this Yahoo/Flickr thing, but on the off chance anyone else is equally intrigued by the whole debacle, please do step inside... →[More:]

I'm kind of curious who it is that makes the bad decisions at Yahoo, but it seems to me their window of opportunity is going to slip away if they don't act, like, now. Today.

On the face of it, it's bad; people are saying awful things about them, in the strongest possible terms, all over the internet. Almost no mainstream media has picked up the ball yet, which is probably just because the idea of trying to make non-webby readers understand the what the fuss is about is just too tiring to contemplate... but it doesn't matter, because Yahoo is an internet business, and what happens now matters a lot to the future of the company. Flickr is its most high-profile and glamorous acquisition in "insider" internet terms, and what happens at Flickr could have a significant effect, negative or positive on the viability of future plans.

Maybe the uproar will die down, old users will bite the bullet and create their Yahoo IDs or slink off never to be heard from again. But if I were Yahoo, I wouldn't count on it - and even if this did happen, this will still be a stain, and there will still be all those damning remarks floating around in the tubes' long, long memory.

Or maybe the uproar won't die down, and this will signify the beginning of the downward slide of Flickr. And if Yahoo takes a thriving property with a committed and loyal user base and turns it into poop, especially after some significant earlier failures, how would investors ever trust them again? I wouldn't want to take that chance if I were them.

The single silver lining right now for Yahoo is that all eyes and ears are trained towards them; whatever they do will be commented on and hashed out all over bloggerville, and you can't pay for that kind of attention.

Here's what I would do:

I'd offer old skool pro users a year free as a good faith gesture of "We are committed to offering the best possible service and response to your needs, so here's a year free - just try us for free and see if we live up to our pledge."

I would set it up so people can log into their yahoo account directly from Flickr without having to pass through a Yahoo page if they don't want to.

I would hire extra, dedicated, staff (enough! and skilled!) to tend to any login, etc. problems anyone might have, with a place on the Flickr login page that says "Trouble logging in? Talk to our help staff" or something similar.

I would set up a board that includes some Flickr users, Flickr staff, and Yahoo execs to hash out the terms of service so that a clear statement can be drawn up per how member photos may or may not be used with regard to Yahoo branding/advertising, etc.

Further, I would make the board permanent, and have biannual meetings to address any future Flickr issues that may arise, as well as feel-good stuff - a permanent bridge between Yahoo/Flickr and its users.

I would remove the dire "your Flickr account and all your photos will be deleted if you delete your Yahoo account!" and apply a generous grace period in which the thing can be resolved in case the deletion was accidental, malicious, a problem on the server side, etc.

The initial announcement was accompanied by promises of future improvements. Wow, wouldn't this be a great time to talk a little about what some of these wonderful new things might be? I think so.

Finally, for any old skool pro who still wants to jump ship, I would extend the offer to buy them a six-month membership on X, Y or Z photosharing service, and say "We understand and honor your concerns, but we think that you may want to come back in the future; we'll back up your account if you choose, and it will be there waiting for you when and if you decide to renew your Flickr membership". This is saucy. It's also a big gesture, a sign of confidence, and much friendlier grist for hungry blogmills.

And for heaven's sake, I would hire me a small team of super smart advisors who really know how the power user/community/bloggy side of the internet works.

And that's what I would do. What would you do?

post by: taz at: 04:28 | 25 comments

I think you've gone too deep into the abyss, taz. You're projecting the complaints of a relatively small group of people onto a huge population of Flickr/Yahoo! users. No one will ever satisfy that small (no, tiny) group of power users--and especially not Yahoo!. Yahoo! is clearly intending to roll-up their acquired properties into a unified user experience. It's what the investors want and it's what the casual internet user wants (whether she knows it or not). And, most importantly, it's how Yahoo! thinks it will make money.

The blogmills think they're powerful--and with smallish Internet properties, they are--but they hold little sway over Yahoo!. So long as the casual internet user has a pleasant experience with Yahoo! (and, by and large, this is the case currently), Yahoo! will ignore the blogs and the most persnickety of its user-base, as it should.

I'm not saying Yahoo! should completely disregard the power-user, but it's a tough line to toe. On a much smaller scale, you see this with Metafilter. If mathowie spent all his time listening to the endless back-and-forth in Metatalk as it pertains to every little issue, he'd be buried in the minutia. Instead, he takes the pulse of the community on occasion but ultimately makes decisions he thinks are for the good of the larger user-base. It works pretty well, I think. Yahoo! has this same issue, except they also have to worry about their shareholders at the same time.

Anyway, if you just meant this as a "Wouldn't It Be Great" thought-exercise, well I apologize for being a pooper. The good news is that because Yahoo! made the Flickr people rich, the next team that comes along with a Flickr-like website will be able to find VC money to ramp up their project. Then the cycles starts all over again.

posted by mullacc 02 February | 06:00

You're assuming the Yahoo cares about its flickr users. I understand that the old flickr staff care about them but Yahoo already has a hugely successful photo site.

For Yahoo, Flickr is of marginal interest. There's some nice tech to be salvaged and they make a bit of money but that is it. I'd also be suprised if this story found its way off the internets.

So I'd probably do what Yahoo are doing. I'd honour any contractual commitments, I'd move everyone over to my "single login" and I'd not make a fuss about it. Let the flickr staff deal with it.

posted by seanyboy 02 February | 06:10

Yahoo didn't buy flickr. This is what I think you're missing, taz. They could give a rat about purchasing a well-designed site with a back end optimized for uploading, tagging, organizing and displaying photos. They could also give a rat about the flickr "community." That community exists, but they don't care.

They could hire someone to code a knockoff just as good for a tiny fraction of what they paid for flickr, in fact.

So what were they buying?

They were buying the flickr userbase. In particular, they were buying time spent staring at a window they control, by people who have enough money to afford a digital camera.

They spent a hell of a lot of money to buy that. You can't expect them not to use it for the purpose they bought it for.

posted by ikkyu2 02 February | 06:26

yahoo quarterly revenue: $1.5 billion (paid ads)
flickr quarterly revenue: $1.5 million (pro accts)

If I were yahoo, I'd force everyone to sign up for yahoo ids so that I can collect the demographic information that advertisers pay so highly for, even if it meant I lost all the flickr pro accounts (but I'd guess 20% shrinkage tops).

posted by bigblueroom 02 February | 06:30

Yahoo didn't buy flickr...They could give a rat about purchasing a well-designed site with a back end optimized for uploading, tagging, organizing and displaying photos.

But Y! does have a history of incorporating acquired technology into its branded offering. The Yahoo! Mail Beta service that exists right now is an evolution of the Oddpost email service that it acquired in 2007. I'm sure there are other examples, but this is the one I'm familiar with since I was an Oddpost user.

You're right in general, but I think Yahoo! cares much more about a well-designed product relative to, say, InterActiveCorp or News Corp.

posted by mullacc 02 February | 06:35

...Oddpost email service that it acquired in ~~2007~~2004...

Whoops.

posted by mullacc 02 February | 06:36

Well sure, mullacc, I could have engaged in a reasonable, thoughtful analysis like that, but then where would I have found room to fit in the histrionic overstatements of which I'm so fond? How long have you known me again?

Or perhaps you want to be SHOT DEAD for your pains?

Playoffs?!?

posted by ikkyu2 02 February | 06:51

Most of the current furor comes because the Flickr team presented an uncomfortable inconvenience as if it were a feature.

If they'd acknowledged the fact that they were inconveniencing people (ideologically or practically) and addressed the legitimate concerns of the old users (as they then later had to do in fractured pieces across several forums) instead of breezily treating the change as an improvement, I doubt there would be as much outrage. People felt betrayed and ignored, they felt the Flickr team was being dishonest - suddenly, instead of the users and the team being on the same side, it felt like the users only had each other. The staff were pulling the same sort of tricks that the faceless corporations use, hiding bad news and reduced functionality behind supposed updates and hoping no one would make a fuss.

The lesson to be learnt? Don't patronize your users when your brand is built on ideas of community, innovation and friendly openness. Bloggers have a tendency to bite.

posted by hugsnkisses 02 February | 07:09

What did Yahoo do?

posted by mischief 02 February | 08:21

How much you would a Yahoo! screw if a Yahoo! could screw you?

posted by chrismear 02 February | 08:22

What did Yahoo do?

Flickr users have to log into the site using a Yahoo ID now, and this appears to have caused the earth to tip off of its axis. Or something.

posted by BoringPostcards 02 February | 08:36

I doubt Yahoo much cares about a few whiners. They are early adopters and would likely find fault with Yahoo no matter what.

I do find it funny that Yahoo single log-in = evil while Google single log-in = genius.

posted by arse_hat 02 February | 08:52

I would go about business as usual. Wait for everyone to realize this isn't such a big deal.
How many people need 3,000+ contacts? How many people need more than 70something tags?
Not many, I'd wager.

posted by CitrusFreak12 02 February | 08:57

I suspect that Flickr Staff will come up with some sort of gesture. They have done gestures in the past - they gave me an extra year when Yahoo bought them (I think that's when it happened) and they also gave me one or two single year pro accounts to give away too. I would be VERY surprised if something isn't done as a result of the furor.

It's been interesting for me reading the forums. Some of the War Hawks can really get you worked up into a lather, and then someone posts a reasonable comment, and you calm down...

I don't like being fed a line. I am a big boy and can understand business needs. If there is a good reason to do this, and/or if there is NO way they aren't going to do this, then just say so. Please don't feed me a line about page load times, or some other crap.

And, it sounds like Yahoo has a pretty bad track record of maintaining user data. That's scary too. Part of my reasoning for buying a pro account from that great little Canadian startup was to provide me with some offsite backup. It's been quite an eye-opener for me to see how much hatred is out there for Yahoo.

So, to summarize, I think a gesture would be worthwhile. Us 5%'ers did create/populate the community that led to flcikr success. I don't think it's "right" to piss on that crowd. But I also know that right's got little to do with it.

posted by richat 02 February | 09:49

Well I would upgrade all old skool free users to pro for a year.

But I might not have a very objective view of things.

posted by danf 02 February | 10:25

I suspect they'll come up with a badge for old-school users' profile pages, or else play up the 'early adopter,' 'member since x,' 'I was a flickr beta tester' angle in other ways. They might do some other stuff, too, but that particular step would be basically free, and as far as I can see, there's very little downside.

posted by box 02 February | 10:40

And for heaven's sake, I would hire me a small team of super smart advisors who really know how the power user/community/bloggy side of the internet works.

They ARE a small team of super smart advisors. Many have been involved in communities for years.

It's a very small group making a lot of noise. Most have/will merge without a complaint. Sure they might do someething 'nice', but they don't need to. There is no window of opportunity. There is not danger to flickr. there is no danger to yahoo.

posted by justgary 02 February | 11:00

No... I mean Yahoo generally, not Flickr.

posted by taz 02 February | 11:08

Or perhaps you want to be SHOT DEAD for your pains?

*frantically reads his duelling rulebook*

IANAL, but I think you either have the right to take one free shot at me, or retain the milk from two of my goats until my first son deflowers his wife.

posted by mullacc 02 February | 11:10

There is not danger to flickr. there is no danger to yahoo.

I think it's a little naive (not on your part, justgary; I've seen it from a lot of other users as well) to ignore Yahoo!'s track record with previous acquisitions. Maybe some of us, who have been sort of dreading this day since Yahoo! purchased flickr, are just Chicken Littles, but maybe the rest of you are ostriches.

One thing that a lot of the "It's nothing, quit complaining" commenters are overlooking is that a lot of users have paid for pro accounts. These pro accounts came with certain expectations - among them, that there were no limits on contacts or tags. Some people might say, "3000 contacts and 75 tags is a ridiculous number", but the fact that people do hit those limits shouldn't be trivialized. I think that flickr should at least offer prorated refunds on pro accounts to users who are dissatisfied with the changes.

posted by muddgirl 02 February | 11:45

justgary, I don't agree at all. I think there is a danger to flickr, and so, to yahoo. Yes, even if the worst case scenario played out, and flickr fell apart, and ended up gone, yahoo would likely survive. That doesn't mean this is meaningless.

posted by richat 02 February | 12:03

Man, pretty soon, there will be no commas left in the world. I must relearn clauses, or something.

posted by richat 02 February | 12:08

I'd firebomb google and take over the world.

BWAHAHAHA!

posted by youngergirl44 02 February | 12:12

I was reluctant to convert my flickr acount from my old skool login to the new one. I've had an account forever. I finally did it so I could do flickr stuff on my phone.

I still have my old account name and url for pix. I still have my old friends and contacts. It still leaves me logged in forever. I still get notifications to my non-Yahoo email address. It is the exact same as it was before.

The only difference is if I log in from a different computer or my cookies are gone, I log in with my yahoo credentials instead of the old Flickr one.

In the grand scheme of things this is a non-event. It makes it possible for a single sign on for all of Y! services. If these people up in arms about this hate Yahoo, then they should have jumped ship a long time ago.

posted by birdherder 02 February | 15:14

Some flickr staff member offers to personally refund pro accounts, in sort of a snooty manner.

posted by muddgirl 02 February | 20:02

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