MetaChat - Funny Rules 4 The Fellaz!

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08 December 2006

Funny Rules 4 The Fellaz! →[More:]
1: Under no circumstances may two men share an umbrella.

2: It is OK for a man to cry ONLY under the following circumstances:
(a) When a heroic dog dies to save its master.
(b) The moment Angelina Jolie starts unbuttoning her blouse.
(c) After wrecking your boss's car.
(d) One hour, 12 minutes, 37 seconds into "The Crying Game".
(e) When she is using her teeth.

3: Any Man who brings a camera to a bachelor party may be legally killed and eaten by his buddies.

4: Unless he murdered someone in your family, you must bail a friend out of jail within 12 hours.

5: If you've known a guy for more than 24 hours, his sister is off limits forever unless you actually marry her.

6: Moaning about the brand of free beer in a buddy's fridge is forbidden.
However complain at will if the temperature is unsuitable.

7: No man shall ever be required to buy a birthday present for another man. In fact, even remembering your buddy's birthday is strictly optional.
At that point, you must celebrate at a strip bar of the
birthday boy's choice.

8: On a road trip, the strongest bladder determines pit stops,
not the weakest.

9: When stumbling upon other guys watching a sporting event, you may ask the score of the game in progress, but you may never ask who's playing.

10: You may flatulate in front of a woman only after you have brought her to climax.
If you trap her head under the covers for the purpose of flatulent entertainment, she's officially your girlfriend.

11: It is permissible to drink a fruity alcohol drink only when you're
sunning on a tropical beach... and it's delivered by a topless
model and only when it's free.

12: Only in situations of moral and/or physical peril are you allowed to kick another guy in the nuts.

13: Unless you're in prison, never fight naked.

14: Friends don't let friends wear Speedos. Ever. Issue closed.

15: If a man's fly is down, that's his problem, you didn't see
anything.

16: Women who claim they "love to watch sports" must be treated as spies until they demonstrate knowledge of the game and the ability to drink as much as the other sports watchers.

17: A man in the company of a hot, suggestively dressed woman must remain sober enough to fight.

18: Never hesitate to reach for the last beer or the last slice of
pizza, but not both, that's just greedy.

19: If you compliment a guy on his six-pack, you'd better be talking about his choice of beer.

20: Never join your girlfriend or wife in discussing a friend of yours, except if she's withholding sex pending your response.

21: Phrases that may NOT be uttered to another man while lifting
weights:
(a) Yeah, Baby, Push it!
(b) C'mon, give me one more! Harder!
(c) Another set and we can hit the showers!

22: Never talk to a man in a bathroom unless you are on equal footing:
i.e., both urinating, both waiting in line, etc. For all other
situations, an almost imperceptible nod is all the conversation
you need.

23: Never allow a telephone conversation with a woman to go on longer than you are able to have sex with her.
Keep a stopwatch by the phone. Hang up if necessary.

24: The morning after you and a girl who was formerly "just a friend" have carnal, drunken monkey sex, the fact that you're feeling weird and guilty is no reason for you not to nail each other again before the discussion occurs about what a big mistake it was.

25: It is acceptable for you to drive her car. It is not acceptable for
her to drive yours.

26: Thou shalt not buy a car in the colors of brown, pink, lime green, orange or sky blue.

27: The girl who replies to the question "What do you want for
Christmas?" with "If you loved me, you'd know what I want!" gets an Xbox. End of story.

28: There is no reason for guys to watch Ice Skating or Men's
Gymnastics. Ever.

---------------------------

We've all heard about people having guts or balls. But do you really know the difference between them? In an effort to keep you informed, the definition of each is listed below:

"GUTS" is arriving home late after a night out with the guys, being
assaulted by your wife with a broom, and having the guts to say, "are you still cleaning or are you flying somewhere?"

"BALLS" is coming home late after a night out with the guys smelling of perfume and beer, lipstick on your collar, slapping your wife on the butt and having the balls to say,
"You're next!"

We hope this clears up any confusion..

post by: Joe Famous at: 11:01 | 128 comments

Gee, when did Metachat become Maxim magazine?

This really gives me hope for half the human race.

posted by matildaben 08 December | 11:08

27: The girl who replies to the question "What do you want for Christmas?" with "If you loved me, you'd know what I want!" gets an Xbox. End of story.

Hahah, I've always been a very specific gift requester. "Here's what I want, here's the link, here's a coupon!"

posted by ThePinkSuperhero 08 December | 11:18

2: It is OK for a man to cry ONLY under the following circumstances:

what about when Rocky calls out to Adrian at the end of the first movie? That makes me blubber like a baby.

22: Never talk to a man in a bathroom unless you are on equal footing:
i.e., both urinating, both waiting in line, etc. For all other
situations, an almost imperceptible nod is all the conversation
you need.

This could've been more useful to me six months ago.

matildaben: this list may be puerile, but it's harmless and pretty funny.

posted by jonmc 08 December | 11:21

rules for the girlz:

1. No rules. We're freeeeeee! FREEEEE!

posted by taz 08 December | 11:25

Weeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee!

posted by ThePinkSuperhero 08 December | 11:29

Damn, Matildaben! When did Metachat lose it's humor? Geeeeez Loueeeeeeeze!

(and for the record, "4 The Fellaz" is in the subect line)

posted by Joe Famous 08 December | 11:29

7: No man shall ever be required to buy a birthday present for another man. In fact, even remembering your buddy's birthday is strictly optional.
At that point, you must celebrate at a strip bar of the
birthday boy's choice.

Wait just a minute, man. In my desk sits a birthday card signed by you (among others). I want some strippers right now or I'm gonna have to buy you a dress.

posted by jonmc 08 December | 11:31

Speaking of free drinks, at bowling leauge last week this hot girl came to our table and asked if we were drinking Coors Light (we were drinking Dos Equis, as evidenced by the lime and salt). We said no, so she brought us a free pitcher and some free swag. The beer still sucked.

posted by muddgirl 08 December | 11:34

Oh okay then, Mac! G'head and buy me the dress. I'm sure I can pass it off as a holiday gift to some annoying auntie of mine. LOL.

posted by Joe Famous 08 December | 11:35

The beer still sucked.

Free beer is kind of like oral sex. Even when it's bad, it's still pretty good.

posted by jonmc 08 December | 11:36

Is it really funny?
Because it seems more "I need rules to live by because I'm too busy being scared I might be gay."
i'm sure the people in the banana video would love it. Do forward it to them.

posted by ethylene 08 December | 11:49

I feel "I need rules to live by because I'm too busy being scared I might be gay" pretty much sums up a great deal of the negatives of modern manhood. :)

I actually thought this was going to be about Christopher Hitchens' last column, in which he declared women were not funny because only men are funny. Apparently our hesitating at discussing premature ejaculation and impotency in mixed company is genetic, you see, because we have babies.

posted by occhiblu 08 December | 11:54

Yes, did you know women are only funny when giving in to our lesbian tendencies to make other women laugh?
Why, i'm sure that's hysterical, except i'm a woman so i don't know from funny, except i must be fat.

But then funny women are asexual and scare the menfolk, so we must make big eyes and nod a lot until their attentions are no longer needed.

posted by ethylene 08 December | 12:00

See? There you go. They should give you a column in Vanity Fair.

posted by occhiblu 08 December | 12:03

i'm sure the people in the banana video would love it.

I suppose I'm to be offended somehow.

posted by danostuporstar 08 December | 12:06

Seems more like a playful goof on dumb guy stuff than anything with a serious agenda.

posted by jonmc 08 December | 12:11

The Vanity Fair article was really interesting; I've often wondered why it seems men get more of a chance to be funny then women; why women are not often viewed to be as funny as men.

posted by ThePinkSuperhero 08 December | 12:11

Women are incredibly funny!
If you ever get a chance and you live in the NY Tri-State area, go see Kimmy Gatewood.

I had the pleasure of working with her and her improv group two years ago.
Here's her website:

A few of my favorties:

Lucille Ball
Moms Mabley
Jeanine Garofalo
Ellen Degeneres
Da Brat (because she really IS funny in person)

posted by Joe Famous 08 December | 12:12

That came out so wrong (sorry)

Kimmy's Website: www.kimgatewood.com

posted by Joe Famous 08 December | 12:13

My favorite funny woman is Rosie O'Donnell. She can do no wrong, in my book.

posted by ThePinkSuperhero 08 December | 12:14

so take my advice folks

Duh, duh-duh...

My favorite funny woman is Rosie O'Donnell.

Lisa Lampanelli. Potty-mouthed enough to make Richard Pryor blush.

posted by jonmc 08 December | 12:15

Seems more like a playful goof on dumb guy stuff than anything with a serious agenda.

THAT'S EXACTLY WHAT IT IS!

Of course we don't ALL see this as a real list of rules. THAT'S WHY IT'S FUNNY.

HELLO???!!!

posted by Joe Famous 08 December | 12:16

(and you really don't want us to be sensitive new-age milquetoast males. on a certain level a lot of women dig testosteroned antix, at least sometimes)

posted by jonmc 08 December | 12:18

For the record, I found 8, 10 and 24 to be funny. 20 is too true, sadly, to be funny. The rest are kinda meh.

Interesting post nonetheless just to see the reaction.

posted by danostuporstar 08 December | 12:19

And just incase I get cited for plagiarism, I didn't write the post. It's just something going around the internet I thought the fellas would get a kick out of.

I'm sure you'll se it around again sooner or later.

Oh yeah. and I'll be sure to keep the "jokes" a lot more conservative next time as well.
I'll take it back to the "Knock-Knock" days.
HAHAHAHA!!!

Some folks are just too prude! Lighten up. It's Holiday Time!

posted by Joe Famous 08 December | 12:27

it was probably the guts and balls definitions what done 'im in.

posted by taz 08 December | 12:29

And if you check my MySpace page you'll see that it was actually a woman who sent it to me as a comment in the first place.

posted by Joe Famous 08 December | 12:34

Oh, calm down, joe.
It's not particularly funny or offensive. It's just the kind of thing you get in forwards from people who sign up for jokes to "be the life of they party!!!" and then so obvious and pandering.
it just made me think of the Hitchens thing so once it was mentioned, i jumped in.
I was making a joke and am female and so am not funny.
That is a joke, but it's not funny.

The only thing less funny than a woman is a man trying to compete with a woman who is funny.
in a bar.
when there are both men and women present.
ha.
hah.

posted by ethylene 08 December | 12:35

And if you check my MySpace page you'll see that it was actually a woman who sent it to me as a comment in the first place.

http://www.myspace.com/thenewbornexperience

posted by Joe Famous 08 December | 12:37

I'm very calm, I just can't believe the reaction, that's all.
You'd think some people have never seen or heard that kind of humor ever before in life and got a chuckle or two out of it.

posted by Joe Famous 08 December | 12:40

See, joe?
i thought the girls were gonna talk about that article and salvage the thread from being you and jon dudeing it up, but i'm just a girl--

*pouts and makes big eyes*

Don't worry. i'ma goin' to the little girls room.

posted by ethylene 08 December | 12:40

and if i check your myspace page will i see it was a woman who sent you it?

I'm going already!!

posted by ethylene 08 December | 12:42

Yep you will. I promise.

posted by Joe Famous 08 December | 12:45

Yep you will. I promise.

posted by Joe Famous 08 December | 12:45

It's a tired gag, but so are many of the good ones--much funnier than this list, though, are the dipshits that take this kind of stuff seriously.

Men who feel compelled for half-understood reasons, probably related to genital insecurity, to act like the miracle lovechild of Adam Sandler and Larry the Cable Guy, and then wonder why women with something going for themselves want nothing to do with them? And women who think they can substitute trite jackass generalizations for real understanding, and then wonder why they keep dating douchebags? I think that stuff's hilarious. Then again, I've got a dark sense of humor.

posted by box 08 December | 12:48

Mainly, it's not very original. I have no problem with stupid gender stereotype humor if it's actually funny and something I haven't seen before.

posted by matildaben 08 December | 12:57

"Not finding something particularly funny" and "being offended" are not actually the same thing. I can find something unfunny for a wide variety of reasons, most of which do not involve finding it offensive.

(I am, of course, also fabulous at finding something offensive for a variety of reasons.)

But maybe I'll just join eth with the pouting and the big eyes and hope that it conjures up a man who will bring me coffee, because I seem too entirely lazy to go make it myself.

posted by occhiblu 08 December | 12:59

Could someone bring me lunch? I'm too hungry and too cold to go out myself. Big Enchilada, stewed chicken, mild, black beans, no tomatoes. TIA!

posted by ThePinkSuperhero 08 December | 13:04

If I could, Occhiblu and TPS, I'd bring you luch and coffe. I just came back from outside and yes, it's still very brutal.

posted by Joe Famous 08 December | 13:06

Pinky, how do you feel about turkey, swiss, sprouts and horseradish mustard on a jalapeno bagel? I'm eating in today, but I've got some extra.

posted by box 08 December | 13:08

Never talk to a man in a bathroom unless you are on equal footing:
i.e., both urinating, both waiting in line, etc. For all other
situations, an almost imperceptible nod is all the conversation
you need.

There fixed that for you, once you've passed the door, even if you were talking to your friend on the way in all conversation must cease.

posted by drezdn 08 December | 13:13

This one kind of nosedived for two reasons, joe. First, it's just that email kind of stuff that everyone's relatives send them, and also, the "guy" humor thing isn't really very at home here. Partly because we have a lot of women, but also, definitely, because we have a lot of women from MeFi, the boyzone, so a lot of us tend to be a little protective of not letting mecha become boyzone-y. Sometimes, too strenuously. But there's kind of a lot of history behind that you can't know about, and things come out differently in text on a blog, so it's easy for us all to misunderstand one another.

But pretty much everyone here has a good sense of humor and will be right with you most of the time, so don't be put off. All will be chill. You will continue to be friends among people who reacted negatively in this thread, for sure.

also, now I'm getting really hungry

posted by taz 08 December | 13:13

hope that it conjures up a man who will bring me coffee

you can have mine. for some reason it has a weird tea-like undertaste. I don't the pushcart guy on Varick with the goiter on his neck washes his urn too often.

box: ditch the sprouts and that sounds delicious, man.

posted by jonmc 08 December | 13:13

Ha! I thought you meant I could have the man you've conjured to bring you coffee.

posted by occhiblu 08 December | 13:17

While I must say that I think Hitchens is full of crap about women being inherently less funny, I must also admit that I am often sorely disappointed in female comics. Too frequently, they rely on the "boyz are dumb and periods hurt, amiriteladies?!?!" stuff. Too few use the anger and absurdity that I need in my comedy.

BUT I think that may be more a function of what "sells" than what women are capable of. Maybe since the deliciously foul-mouthed Sarah Silverman has made it so big we'll see more chicks with bite and less jokes about weight issues and husbands who won't hand over the remote.

posted by jrossi4r 08 December | 13:19

It seems like that might be a function of numbers, though, too? Seems like there are tons of male comics who rely on the "girlz are dumb and blowing stuff up is good!" genre, too; they just don't get as much attention because there are so many of them.

I fear that last paragraph made no sense whatsoever.

General idea: Most comics, regardless of gender, are bad. There are simply numerically more male comics, however, which leads to a higher probability of a good male comic getting attention.

posted by occhiblu 08 December | 13:23

JF, what the hell have you got against sky blue cars?

posted by paulsc 08 December | 13:26

Hey, when my husband won't hand over the remote, I just eat a whole box of cookies. What's the big deal? And what's the deal with boobs? Can't live with 'em, can't be a mastectomy candidate without 'em. Now, let's talk about that gunk on our panties... where does that come from? In my case, it must panspermia, 'cause I know I'm not getting anything else!

all for jrossi4r, whom I love, and therefore wish to torture

posted by taz 08 December | 13:31

::dies laughing at mention of panty gunk::

posted by ThePinkSuperhero 08 December | 13:36

General idea: Most comics, regardless of gender, are bad. There are simply numerically more male comics, however, which leads to a higher probability of a good male comic getting attention.

I dunno. Showbiz loves a gimmick, and (this I agree is a function of sexism) a female comic is still sort of a novelty.

It is interesting that the female comics who succeed seem to succeed in a really big way (Roseanne Barr, Ellen Degeneres).

Ha! I thought you meant I could have the man you've conjured to bring you coffee.

You dig Eastern European men with neck goiters? Jeez, women are pervier than men. ;>

posted by jonmc 08 December | 13:36

I love that in your satire of crappy stupid comics, you include a concept I have to go look up. :)

posted by occhiblu 08 December | 13:36

I hear you, occhiblu and you make a great point. There are PLENTY of hack male comedians. (I'm looking at YOU Carlos Mencia.)

I also think that there are real hardset prejudices about what women are "allowed" to do in comedy. It seems like the women who get the spotlight are specially chosen to appeal ONLY to women. And if you're too "edgy" you'll alienate what is perceived to be your female fanbase. That's why The Mommies are millionaires and Lisa Lampenelli only pops up at the occasional Friars Roast.

Taz, you're too funny to even fake being unfunny. The panspermia crack betrayed you with its hilarity.

posted by jrossi4r 08 December | 13:38

Okay so it wasn't as funny to some as I thought it was. But still...it's a matter of opinion, no?
I thought it was making fun of men who actually think like the list suggests. Guess not.

It's no big deal though. Movin' on now...

posted by Joe Famous 08 December | 13:39

When I saw essexjan's Holy... post, my first thought was "Whoa is this some kind of trap? If I say something about this, what are the chances I'll get through the thread without being branded in some negative way?" My second thought was that I should stop being paranoid and I went ahead and said something. I still made a conscious effort to be delicate. I check back awhile later, and whatdoyaknow but I have been called a sexually-insecure homophobic neanderthal, just in a different thread.

Christopher Hitchens is an utter turd. He doesn't speak for me. I feel a much greater affinity for the point-of-view of my fellow geeks, the women of metachat, than I do for whatever crap he's written lately. Still I feel like I've been lumped in with him because I've disagreed with those women on occasion.

So, though I find fault and hypocrisy in statements about the "negatives of modern manhood" and the need to "salvage the thread from ... dudeing", I can't really express them for fear of digging a deeper hole for myself. Instead I'm left with the choice of debating the preposterous notion that woman aren't funny or just not participating at all.

I guess I'm saying metachat has, for me, swung the pendulum into becoming a girlzone where I feel my input is increasingly unwelcome. It's probably a good thing; teaches me a thing or two about stuff I've taken for granted. But it is a little disappointing.

posted by danostuporstar 08 December | 14:18

I think we have a Zoning dispute.

posted by jonmc 08 December | 14:24

I guess I'm saying metachat has, for me, swung the pendulum into becoming a girlzone where I feel my input is increasingly unwelcome.

I would disagree. . .I think it's fairly egalitarian around here, and some posters, I don't even know their gender as of yet.

(Just please please don't put those pics of me on the net, taz. . .and I'll say anything you want about this place.)

posted by danf 08 December | 14:25

a female comic is still sort of a novelty

Seriously? Please tell me most people don't feel this way.

I guess I'm saying metachat has, for me, swung the pendulum into becoming a girlzone where I feel my input is increasingly unwelcome.

The other alternative, dano, is that you're just as sensitive about this stuff as a lot of women here (and elsewhere) are. Anytime one of these sex/gender issues comes up, there are a few voices on the girl side who are really invested in making their point (and for the record, I usually agree with them, especially occhiblu). And there are a couple of guys who seem really invested in saying "But wait, wait, wait, I'm a man and I'm not a pig!" (And then there are a couple who just make jokes about being pig-like, but they're easy enough to scan over.)

If women can be said to be too sensitive about the issue, men can too.

It's probably a good thing; teaches me a thing or two about stuff I've taken for granted.

Would have to agree with you there.

posted by mudpuppie 08 December | 14:25

"Negatives of modern manhood" was meant as a description of the negative ways in which men are held back/restricted by society, if it helps. Not as an indication that everything associated with modern men is negative.

posted by occhiblu 08 December | 14:27

I find it interesting that in contrast to metafilter, where all manner of things turn into dead end arguments leading to frustrated posters, gender seems to be the only issue that repeatedly - albeit occasionally, and in cycles - leads to messes in here. I don't draw any conclusions other than Gender Is Hard and It Matters. I welcome all input.

posted by rainbaby 08 December | 14:34

a female comic is still sort of a novelty

Seriously? Please tell me most people don't feel this way.

They do.

posted by ThePinkSuperhero 08 December | 14:34

Us Modern Men Love Cute Li'L Bunny Rabbits.

posted by Fuzzy Monster 08 December | 14:34

Also, the sexually insecure homophobic neanderthal thing: That's exactly my problem with lists like the original one -- they seem to indicate that the only way to be a man is to be a sexually insecure neanderthal. I (and I assume most women here, and in general) think men are better than that, which is why these lists tend to seem unfunny. It seems like it's not the feminists who are saying that men suck; it's the "manly men must do manly things" group.

And I certainly wouldn't lump anyone here in with Hitchens. While I think there's an interesting conversation to be had about why women are perceived as funny, I don't think his drivel is part of that, and I would assume that most people posting here aren't thinking in the "you're with us or you're agin us" black-and-white way that you seem to be attributing to us (to me?).

posted by occhiblu 08 December | 14:36

a female comic is still sort of a novelty

Seriously? Please tell me most people don't feel this way.

They do.

Wow. I do live in a rarefied world.

posted by mudpuppie 08 December | 14:38

Oops, that was supposed to be "why women are not perceived as funny."

Though I kinda like the typo, too.

posted by occhiblu 08 December | 14:38

a female comic is still sort of a novelty

Seriously? Please tell me most people don't feel this way.

I didn't say I felt that way. Just that it's promoted that way more or less. "The Queens Of Comedy," etc. etc. like it's a revelation that girls can be funny.

If women can be said to be too sensitive about the issue, men can too.

Well beyond all that, I think that when communities grow, they seem to inevitably start to fragment. A certain amount of that is birds of a feather behavior and understandable, but I'd really hate to see this place becoume populated by antagonistic cliques.

And then there are a couple who just make jokes about being pig-like, but they're easy enough to scan over

And, maybe (radical idea here) some of those making jokes are trying to say 'keep it light, this is supposed to be fun.' just a thought.

"Negatives of modern manhood" was meant as a description of the negative ways in which men are held back/restricted by society, if it helps. Not as an indication that everything associated with modern men is negative.

Don't take this personally, since it's not really directed at anyone in particular, but I think a lot of us guys hear a phrase like 'negatives of modern manhood' and have visions of a speech where we're going to be told that because we like football and strippers and explodey movies that we secretly hate women, harbor homosexual desires and enslave crippled children in Kajagoogoostan. This is because most of us have been harangued in that fashion before either in person or in print, and it wears thin after awhile. It's no fun nodding your head and saying 'yes, we're terrible,' all the time. And I think you all know us well enough to give us the benefit of the doubt sometimes.

they seem to indicate that the only way to be a man is to be a sexually insecure neanderthal. I (and I assume most women here, and in general) think men are better than that, which is why these lists tend to seem unfunny.

It's self-parody. That's why me and joe find it funny. we live in 'guy world' where these silly 'rules' still sort of float around so it's kind of fun to goof on them.

as for 'neanderthal,'...it's sort of like sometimes even the most ardent upstanding independent feminist woman might like to put on lipstick and get soppy over a soap opera. Sometimes even the most forward thinking, gay-positive, pro-feminist male (and I (and most of the MeChaMen as well I think) consider myself one) might wanna watch football, drink beer and make animal noises for awhile. It's not neccessarily a bad thing.

posted by jonmc 08 December | 14:41

Although contentious, this list has definitely taught me to be a better man. No longer will I drink Pina Coladas in the bathroom while wearing my speedo and having sex with my best friend’s sister. This I vow!

posted by Fuzzy Monster 08 December | 14:45

You're reading me wrong: My point is that it's restrictive to have to like those things in order to be considered manly.

The posted list, for example, claims that it's only OK for men to cry at certain times; presumably, then, a guy who cries at other times is not a man (and, by association, it means he's gay, because we all know gay men aren't real men). It's a silly example, of course, but I know that guys get this sort of crap all the time. My boss at some point said that no woman should date a guy who doesn't watch sports, because that obviously meant he was gay (she was not in any way joking).

Just as I don't think women should be forced to wear lipstick and like babysitting and worry all the time about whether they're being attractive to men, I don't think guys should be forced to like sports and worry all the time about whether other people think they're gay.

posted by occhiblu 08 December | 14:46

Missing a conclusion there: It's gender-restrictive behaviors on either sex that I have a problem with; you have to do this because you're a girl, or you have to do this other thing because you're a boy. And those things you "have" to do are what I was calling the "negatives of modern manhood," those "rules" that guys have to follow, regardless of whether they really want to, because otherwise they don't get to be "men."

posted by occhiblu 08 December | 14:48

The posted list, for example, claims that it's only OK for men to cry at certain times; presumably, then, a guy who cries at other times is not a man (and, by association, it means he's gay, because we all know gay men aren't real men).

Yeah, but (and maybe this is only visible from a guy point-of-view) it comes across to me as a parody of the silly rules we live with.

My point is that it's restrictive to have to like those things in order to be considered manly.

We know. To real neanderthals my 'manliness' would be under suspicion on a number of fronts (hair to my shoulders, rings in my ears, reads poetry, makes less money than wife, like mojitos and the Gilmore Girls. whatta sissyboy!) which is ridiculous. Thus putting ridiculous rules in print and holding them up for ridicule is kind of funny.

posted by jonmc 08 December | 14:53

I guess I'm saying metachat has, for me, swung the pendulum into becoming a girlzone

Well, it's still quite far from being a girlzone. We don't automatically assume every user is a woman unless their username is specifically "boyyyy" or, like "fred" or "steve"; we don't make jokes about how small or big we think a guy's dick might be, or if someone links to an article with a pic of the male author, talk about whether we'd hit it or not.

Where we, as a site, are beginning to fall down is by beginning to make it seem that any male coming here is entering our territory, and if they can't stand the heat, they better stay out of the kitchen... and I've seen the same thing too much the other way around.

We've had fantastic women at metafilter who don't contribute anymore, or very little, because it's really not a very friendly environment for women... and it's maddening. I hope metachat will never be that way on the other side, but saying that it is anything alike right now isn't right, dano. The gender issues stuff here gets a lot more feminine input, and lot less "sand in your vagina?", so you're getting a different balance from the same kind of people who are at mefi, except more women, and nicer. If you really did have to deal with the same overwhelming bias that we do there, all the time, you would curl right up.

However, I agree that this isn't meant to be a women's issues space, and our ideal demographic is somewhere around 50/50. Let's all make this possible, please, by giving each other a little latitude and not assuming the worst about any post or comment.

posted by taz 08 December | 14:56

I thought it was making fun of men who actually think like the list suggests.

Yep, I thought that too. I got a kick out of it.

posted by iconomy 08 December | 14:58

or if someone links to an article with a pic of the male author, talk about whether we'd hit it or not.

IIRC, there've been several threads where female readers have salivated over various male celebrities. and I'm cool with that.

posted by jonmc 08 December | 14:58

Just as I don't think women should be forced to wear lipstick and like babysitting and worry all the time about whether they're being attractive to men, I don't think guys should be forced to like sports and worry all the time about whether other people think they're gay.

I absolutely agree, but I wonder.. Who's doing the forcing? I'm a man who doesn't care at all about sports and I never have. I grew up in Dallas, Texas and I didn't watch sports, play sports or care about sports. I put in the bare minimum in gym class and after awhile my P.E. teachers would let me be. There was social pressure to 'fit in', no doubt, but you know what? You can't control how other people think of you-- so, in the words of Richard Feynman, What Do You Care What Other People Think? If you adopt this attitude no one can force you (short of using physical force) to do anything you don't want to do. Do your own thing and if other folks don't like it, well, that's their problem.

And jonmc: what do have against the good people of Kajagoogoostan? Without them we wouldn't have the fiberglass car.

posted by Fuzzy Monster 08 December | 15:01

IIRC, there've been several threads where female readers have salivated over various male celebrities. and I'm cool with that.
posted by jonmc 08 December | 14:58

Would NOT hit. Sorry.

posted by ThePinkSuperhero 08 December | 15:01

you would curl right up.

Are you questioning my manhood?
(Fair enough, 'boyzone' has larger definition than I realized.)

posted by danostuporstar 08 December | 15:04

(pinky, I was saying that I think it's fine if women wanna talk about how hot they think George Clooney is, as long as (straight) men get to do the same about whomever, and gay guys and lesbians. What's wrong with that?)

posted by jonmc 08 December | 15:06

Are you questioning my manhood?

Quick, dano! Lift these weights with me! RWWAARGH!

posted by Fuzzy Monster 08 December | 15:08

I'M A BIG HAIRY FARTY MAN AND I HATE FOOTBALL AND STRIPPERS MAKE ME NERVOUS AND I AM INCREDIBLY TOUGH AND I CAN TAKE A JOKE. I LOVE AND RESPECT MY BROTHERS AND SISTERS AND HOPE WE CAN ALL MOVE INTO THE FUTURE TOGETHER ARM IN ARM AGAINST THE INDIGNITIES, TRIALS, HORRORS AND ABSURDITIES OF THIS HOSTILE AND UNCARING UNIVERSE.

The greatest achievement -to me- would be to hold out against that universe and try very hard to give each other the benefit of the doubt and maximize the love and minimize the jive.

To quote the great Tracy Morgan, that would make me "Proud as a Peacork! Right my baloney?"

posted by Divine_Wino 08 December | 15:09

heh, dano.

Forget about celebrities, jon. If a female features in a post at mefi, in any way, there are tons of comments about how attractive she is or isn't, and what users would or wouldn't like to fuck her. Dead women, homicidal women, bloggers, SCIENTISTS, whatever. You know what I mean.

posted by taz 08 December | 15:10

Also, I love the wino.

posted by taz 08 December | 15:12

Yeah, Fuzzy, Push it!

posted by danostuporstar 08 December | 15:13

I WAS KIDDING, jonmc. It was a yolk! Apparently not a very funny one. Damn Fridays.

posted by ThePinkSuperhero 08 December | 15:13

That's true, taz, and that's unfair. Like I said, I've dealt with overzealous defenders of various 'isms' before who would accuse you of sexism if your head happened to turn too fast at a pretty girl walking by, and if you want to be a fairly progressive person in this society (and believe it or not, I do) you run into a certain amount of that and you develop a sensitivity to it. I'll try to work on that and I hope others will work on giving guys like me,joe, hugh and dano the benefit of the doubt.

posted by jonmc 08 December | 15:15

try very hard to give each other the benefit of the doubt and maximize the love and minimize the jive.

Preach it, divine one. Amen, amen, amen.

In the words of the immortal (literally) C. Montgomery Burns: "Push out the jive, bring in the love!"

posted by jrossi4r 08 December | 15:15

Also, I love the wino.

He functions as a goodwill ambassador on behalf of me, joe and hugh. he does an excellent job.

posted by jonmc 08 December | 15:16

Oh also:

13: Unless you're in prison, never fight naked.

Frankly if being naked is what it takes to win the fight/escape with your life there is goin' to be some fucking naturism right quick.

I once saw a skinny little motherfucker back down about 40 teenagers by stripping down to the buff and demanding that they fight him. Good stuff, very manly.

posted by Divine_Wino 08 December | 15:16

me, i just didn't think it was funny.
AND THAT'S A FUCKING CRIME
or not.
oh but the jokes i deleted.

now who's getting naked?

jane? get me off this crazy thing?

posted by ethylene 08 December | 15:29

I feel like a fair amount of conflict here is due to the fact that a number of the women here (myself most certainly included) don't keep their mouths shut when people say offensive things that they may not realize are offensive, in the way that most women do let those things go in the real world. I usually try to be nice about it, or at least extremely diplomatic, but I don't know that it's fair to lump "everything women think in response to the world" into a separate discrete category of "women's issues."

It's not that I think "if you can't stand the heat...", it's more that I respect the people here enough, and enjoy engaging with them enough, to want to engage when something bothers me, or confuses me, or grabs my attention. And that's not always a freedom that I think many women have in the real world in mixed company -- because girls aren't supposed to be argumentative, doncha know, and because talking about feminist issues in front of men is frowned upon -- and so I see conflicts maybe arising from the fact that, while much of the ideas presented on MeCha are common in conversations among women, a lot of guys don't hear these ideas very often.

*Not* because the women around them don't think like that, but because the women around them don't tend to speak about those thoughts when men are present.

And I've found when my own comments have caused conflict, nine times out of ten it's because someone sees my name or gets the overall tone of my comment, registers "feminist," and starts ascribing any and all preconceived notions of what that word means onto the conversation at hand. So things turn into huge debates about women in general, or feminism in general, or gender relations in general, because people aren't reading very carefully, or are jumping to conclusions. (And if people feel I've done the same to them, I apologize.)

I don't know... I just have a problem with the assumption that "women's issues" have some certain set place and time, and we have to be careful not to let them spill over into the "real" issues too much. I feel like that's the attitude that's creating all the problems in the first place, where guys feel like they're walking on minefields because they don't know what's going to trigger an explosion. It seems that accepting women's views as part of the everyday conversation, rather than assuming they're always a challenge or some sort of specialized field, would help.

posted by occhiblu 08 December | 15:36

I glanced at this thread hours ago and had something to say about it, but a quick glance seems to indicate that in the intervening time the illimitable Divine_Wino has done essentially what I would have done, only with more sass and more sharply dressed.

posted by sciurus 08 December | 15:38

All of the above is not to contradict the general sentiment that assuming the best is a good idea, because I do agree it is.

posted by occhiblu 08 December | 15:39

Hear, hear!

posted by ThePinkSuperhero 08 December | 15:42

And if people feel I've done the same to them, I apologize.

Well, kinda, but that may be a fault of the format of the printed word. If there was a way to communicate the cocked eyebrows and giggling and 'gee, look at us being goofy' that's behind a lot of what some of us say things might be clearer.

and FWIW, if we thought you were some kind of shrill Dworkinite type, we wouldn't even bother trying to get it across.

because girls aren't supposed to be argumentative, doncha know, and because talking about feminist issues in front of men is frowned upon

I have a theory (and I'm actually serious here). I think that a lot of the time when a man hears angry words directed at him (or people like him, etc) it reminds him of being scolded or punished by his mother and makes him feel small and defenseless and that gets his back up. Of course this is just a theory and I'm usually wrong about these kinds of things.

posted by jonmc 08 December | 15:44

I feel like a fair amount of conflict here is due to the fact that a number of the women here (myself most certainly included) don't keep their mouths shut when people say offensive things that they may not realize are offensive, in the way that most women do let those things go in the real world.

I'd agree with this. I think people feel emboldened here to more often describe how they really feel about gender issues and stereotypes, because we see others doing it without drawing down the usual degree of dismissal, belittling, or knee-jerk reaction that characterizes other environments.

posted by Miko 08 December | 15:44

and more sharply dressed.

I wish, today I look like something that was shat out of a boxcar. Very Waiting for Godot meets Jesus Christ get that man a moist towelette and a shaving kit STAT.

posted by Divine_Wino 08 December | 15:45

I have a theory (and I'm actually serious here). I think that a lot of the time when a man hears angry words directed at him (or people like him, etc) it reminds him of being scolded or punished by his mother and makes him feel small and defenseless and that gets his back up.

Despite my dismissal of Freud yesterday, I've made this argument several times and call it my "overly Freudian analysis." (I actually use it mostly when talking about my last relationship, because man did he suddenly decide I was his mother and therefore evil, no matter what the hell I was saying.)

posted by occhiblu 08 December | 15:48

it reminds him of being scolded or punished by his mother and makes him feel small and defenseless

...and then you grow up.

Ok, OK, that was one of those cocked-eyebrow moments; I couldn't resist the joke. But seriously; repressed anger at mother might cause some misogynism, but isn't a justification. Any more than distant, forbidding fathers are justifications for hating men.

posted by Miko 08 December | 15:51

But seriously; repressed anger at mother might cause some misogynism, but isn't a justification.

Of course not. But it's something to take into account when trying to attack misogyny (and there's a difference between sexism and misogyny. I'll cop to sexist behaviors and attitudes, but I certainly don't hate women).

posted by jonmc 08 December | 15:54

Man, it's so darn hard to know what to think about gender these days. I'm a girl, and Joe's post really made me nostalgic for my college years when most of my friends were single guys. But most of the other ladies here seem not to dig the post, so what's wrong with me that I got a chuckle out of it? The gender threads here sometimes remind me of weekends spent with my feminist sister-in-law. She's a great person, but every time I offer to get my husband a cup of coffee or mention my #2 piece of marriage advice for the new wife (get cool with your husband's porn habit), I feel like I'm some 50's throwback and a bad woman.

(Even re-reading this post on preview, I find myself thinking "Is it ok that I called myself a girl?" and "Will the other ladies here not like me because I'm not against porn?" I'm not gonna self-censor, in an effort to illustrate how difficult these gender issues are for folks of either sex.)

posted by pickles 08 December | 15:55

Now I'm intrigued. What's your #1 piece of marriage advice?

(And I tend to see both sides of the porn debate; my main issue is how/whether the actresses themselve are being exploited. I just added this in because I realized the first bit of this comment could sound like a trap. "How very intrigued you are, grandma!")

posted by occhiblu 08 December | 15:59

my #2 piece of marriage advice for the new wife (get cool with your husband's porn habit)

Well, it's the prescriptive nature of you take on porn being presented as advice to someone else that might be irksome. It's cool if you're cool with your husband's porn habit, but maybe it wouldn't be something acceptable to other women. Feminisim is about the greatest degree of truefreedom of choice, rather than restrictions on behavior.

I don't think anyone here is gonna jump down your thoat. Opinions on porn vary, and some of us call ourselves girls and some don't, and the nice thing is, we can discuss it.

posted by Miko 08 December | 16:00

Where we, as a site, are beginning to fall down is by beginning to make it seem that any male coming here is entering our territory, and if they can't stand the heat, they better stay out of the kitchen... and I've seen the same thing too much the other way around.

This jumps out at me. It doesn't seem, to me, that the above happens as a rule. But then again, I'm not a guy, so maybe it's just that I'm not experiencing it. (I could use the outsider analogy, though, and say that as someone who's not attracted to men, it hasn't felt like an issue to me.)

I think the other side of that coin, though, is that while it certainly wouldn't be welcoming to say "Hey, you're on our turf now, and we decide what you can and can't say," this is, thank god, a place where women can feel comfortable. A lot of sites don't provide that level of comfortableness. (And I'll say that yeah, Metafilter is one of them for me. My skin just isn't thick enough, I guess.)

And so when is it okay to say to someone -- regardless of what's in their pants -- "Hey, this is a safe zone for women, and what you've just said makes a lot women uncomfortable, and that's not okay." I mean, how do you keep it a safe place, if by not explaining or discussing why a particular comment or collective mindset is somehow threatening?

(And I'm not suggesting that anything said here was inherently offensive. It's a generic question.)

This is a site where a group of people who mostly like each other and genuinely care for each other spend a lot of time talking to each other. It doesn't seem to me that there are more women here than men. And ideally, the personality of the site would seem neither macho nor girly.

But does the fact that it's not macho and that women feel comfortable here necessarily mean that we give off the impression that men are on our turf?

God, I hope not. But if it does, maybe the problem lies in the interpretation.

[On preview: I see we're into porn now. I took too long to type this.]

posted by mudpuppie 08 December | 16:01

Will the other ladies here not like me because I'm not against porn?"

No. But you will heretofore be known as "Pro-Porn Pickles."

I kid. I'm a girl who likes to look at nakey people. No one here has castigated me for it yet.

posted by jrossi4r 08 December | 16:02

Nothing is wrong with you pickles. I'm a girl, a feminist, I have mostly guy friends, and I'm ok with anyones pr)n habits, including my own.

I didn't think it was funny because it was an email list kind of thing, and I've heard some of it on the radio in the mornings. Doesn't mean I don't like Joe Famous, or boys in general.

I don't know how or why this whole discussion happend in this post of all places - seems a bit of overkill. I just encourage anyone to say what they think at all times. Of course, you could always get smacked down for it, and if you get smacked enough, I suppose you go away.

posted by rainbaby 08 December | 16:05

because people aren't reading very carefully, or are jumping to conclusions.

Occhi, I have been guilty of ascribing preconceived notions to seeing your name (for which I return the apology), but I don't think the notions are some generic idea of 'feminist'. It's more of a lingering anger over the idea that men cannot contribute to certain "womens" discussions (yes that's a simplication of the position you've taken). Part of what was behind my use of 'hypocrisy' above was "this is a guy thread, you (aka especially you) shouldn't be telling us how to feel about these jokes". (Which, of course, is itself hypocrisy on my part, if it's not ok for you to say it about gal threads, then it's not ok for me to feel it about guy threads.)

I want to be less judgemental of folks and not let past comments color current ones, but that's not something that comes naturally to me so I have to work on it. But I do enjoy talking this shit over with you ... I just feel it's come to point where I can't unless I'm willing to get thought of as a bad guy by you and others. That's the part that is disappointing.

posted by danostuporstar 08 December | 16:05

And ideally, the personality of the site would seem neither macho nor girly.

That's why the Metachat logo is a Zombie and a Bunny. Something for everyone!

posted by Fuzzy Monster 08 December | 16:08

THAT'S IT
I'm changing my name to Joe Feminist.

posted by Joe Famous 08 December | 16:11

dano, can I give you a piece of perhaps totally uncalled-for advice? The only times I've been annoyed with you have been because your initial comment in some of these threads has generally been a really sarcastic one-liner type of dealie. Once you actually engage in the conversation, I don't ever think of you as a bad guy, but the opening aggressive attacks do tend to require that I take a HUGE deep breath before I respond.

You seem like a really thoughtful guy with lots of interesting stuff to say, and I feel like we do communicate relatively well, so the random sarcasm lobs that come out of nowhere do seem weird and hostile. And really hard to respond to, because you haven't explained yourself yet, just vented anger, which then sets a hostile tone for further conversation.

(And, repeat chorus: If I've done the same to anyone else, I do apologize.)

posted by occhiblu 08 December | 16:13

"No. But you will heretofore be known as "Pro-Porn Pickles."

I just wanted to see that in writing again. Hah. I love you, jrossi.

posted by iconomy 08 December | 16:15

Well these are knotty issues. . .it reinforces why I spend time at this site. . .just imagine this on Metatalk.

I feel like everyone gets treated with a dose of civility here, and it tends to bring out the best in all of us.

I have nothing more to add. Please proceed with the discussion.

posted by danf 08 December | 16:18

occhi, I sense that you think I am targeting you (from earlier comments), and I'm not. In fact, I adore you (which can be verified by outside parties, to whom I've confessed my devotion). I would be desolate if you stopped speaking your mind, or weren't around for any reason.

and oye, I can't keep up with this thread... to many things I want to answer to!

posted by taz 08 December | 16:18

too, even

posted by taz 08 December | 16:19

rainbaby has it pretty much covered. I thought it was funny in that "he he guyz r cr4zy 2" sort of way. I don't really understand what all this fuss is about, except it sort of reminds me of the discussion we have here EVERY time gender is mentioned. pickles, I don't think any girl here is going to condemn you for porn. That just seems absurd.

"Pro-Porn Pickles"

Hah! Now I know what I'll hand out during safe sex talks. "You know, son, you can't get an STD from watching porn! Here's a pickle to remind you!"

posted by muddgirl 08 December | 16:24

Not uncalled-for advice at all, occhi, helpful in fact. I do wonder if you are thinking more of metatalk than here though. I can only think of one occasion where I've done that at metachat (the one we had an email discussion about). I am conscious of trying to avoid that here, and welcome being called on it if I slip up.

I'll probably do it again in metatalk though, as it's more in keeping with the culture of the place and I have a reputation as an anus to uphold there.

posted by danostuporstar 08 December | 16:29

Pro-Porn Pickes. Sorry, pickles, I will always think of you as pro-porn pickles, just because that's so catchy.

posted by ThePinkSuperhero 08 December | 16:34

Don't worry pickles. I always think of the fire cat first, porn second.

posted by danostuporstar 08 December | 16:40

I think porn is ruined for me now. (No offense to pickles.)

posted by mudpuppie 08 December | 16:40

Are you someone else on MetaFilter, dano? Truly, I don't remember ever talking to you there.

And here, I feel like it has happened a few times -- the Freud thing the other day is what made me think of it as a pattern.

In any event, my main point is that I certainly don't see you as a bad guy because you disagree with me, but I'm likely to see you as a bad guy if you're being rude, regardless of content. :)

posted by occhiblu 08 December | 16:51

And taz, didn't think you were targeting me (well, actually, I did for a minute, but I calmed down), it's more just that I had some weird reactions to your comment and wanted to express them.

See? Neither going away nor silencing myself. :)

posted by occhiblu 08 December | 17:01

Actually, taz, I am completely in awe of your ability to be so diplomatic that you make everyone stop and think, "Hey, that's good advice. Is she talking to me? Do I do that? Maybe I do. I should stop doing that." I would love to have that same skill myself.

*Starts contemplating a "What Would Taz Do" line of merchandising...

posted by occhiblu 08 December | 17:07

I love this thread adn want to contribute but i have to go catch a bus.

All I can do is echo danf.

posted by gaspode 08 December | 17:34

the Freud thing

Yeah, after my last comment I looked back over my recent comments and it didn't take long to find that. That comment was indeed more snarky than instructive, when the reverse was intended. More metatalk than metachat. I stopped something else I was doing to come back and acknowledge it because it was screwing my concentration. I guess my blind spot to remembering it earlier says something about my self-awareness. I still say you were being stubborn, but I should have said it nicer.

I was If I Had An Anus at metafilter, but more recently have been posting as and hosted from Uranus.

posted by danostuporstar 08 December | 17:35

Speaking of pickles or porn. . . .*smile*

Ran into this in Flickr today. . .I am enchanted. . .even tillilated some. . . could this be classified, even loosely, as p)rn? This user seems to devote 100% of her account to body hair in benign places on young women. . .

posted by danf 08 December | 17:53

I love my new nickname! :)

#1 piece of marriage advice: as soon as you can afford it, hire a housekeeper.

posted by pickles 08 December | 18:05

And sorry to bring up the pr0n thing. That's like the Godwin of gender threads.

posted by pickles 08 December | 18:34

Heh, dano. I *was* being stubborn, just not, I think, in the way you thought I was.

posted by occhiblu 08 December | 19:54

Godwin of gender threads

If I ever start a band. . .that's what it will be called. . .

posted by danf 08 December | 20:39

i'm sure the people in the banana video would love it. Do forward it to them.

Wait. Wow, I was sure this said 'banana video thread would love it'. Somehow I even quoted it while imagining the word thread was in there. It's odd being crazy.

posted by danostuporstar 08 December | 23:15

I thought it was making fun of men who actually think like the list suggests.

Yep, I thought that too. I got a kick out of it.

So did I.

posted by redvixen 10 December | 15:43

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