Go to sleep you weary hobo
Let the towns drift slowly by
Can't you hear the steel rail humming
That's a hobo's lullaby

ortho, I have a cd with children's lullabies (great folk american lullabies) and that one is my favorite. I so love this song I gave the cd as a present to all my mother friends. I will post it here in a sec...

Sorry for Mr Graham, hobo-living is the way to go it seems, 89 years old is some full life.

No kidding that's a long one for a hobo...

One of the best pieces of non-fiction I've read is You Can't Win, by (a different) Jack Black. Man, what a read. There's something so compelling about the hobo life.

Here it is: Hobo's lullaby.

I actually just finished rereading Ted Conover's Rolling Nowhere and I think maybe it's time we let the romantic myth of the happy hobo die already.

jonmc, god knows those myths are false. God knows their were plenty of twisted sadistic morally crippled hobos. God knows you're right.

(And Jefferson owned slaves, and MLK cheated on his wife, and the American West was won with genocide of the Indian and near-extinction of the Buffalo.)

But it's those myths that make us the men we are. There are worse things to believe in.

Better Big Rock Candy Mountain and the broken scoundrels there than a saccharin Heaven with sanctimonious bigots and twinkling harps and cutesy cherubim.

And yes, I realize Steam Train was a Seventh-day Adventist.

But it's those myths that make us the men we are.

How? I've read my Kerouac and Jack London. I used to eat that stuff up with a spoon. All I see now on that front is a bunch of ablebodied young people on street corners sparechanging and getting indignant when you don't throw them a quarter.

God knows their were plenty of twisted sadistic morally crippled hobos. God knows you're right.

That's not what I (or Conover) is talking about. Most of the people he met on the rails the time he spent undercover as a hobo were guys who had no other options, basically the rural equivalent of the urban homeless. Thse guys don't need joyriders for competition. And you know what? I like my roof over my head. I like my radiator with the steam heat. I like my TV and record player and internet connection. Sleeping under a bridge in the cold is going to teach me what, that it's no fun? I kinda figure that already.

Yeah, jon, you're right. I'm just sentimental tonight.

Christ, I didn't mean to be cruel about it. In the context of the depression years there was a lot of truth to the hobo mythology. All I'm saying is we live in a different time and that romanticizing picturesque poverty dosen't do us much good these days.

I've been friends with a lot of hobos, and years of my life have been spent with people who were entirely transient. The freedom to go anywhere you want on a whim without being tied down to one place and one or two dead end jobs is something that you can't ever appreciate if you haven't experienced it. Hell, some of the most beautiful parts of the country are remote regions that you can only see from a freight train. Yeah, it can be pretty miserable if you don't have the kind of support network that young hobos have, and yes, people who go out for month long trips all alone sometimes come back a little screwy in the head, but just because Ted Conover met some homeless guys in the mid '80s, and just because you enjoy where you are, doesn't mean that has a fuck of a lot of bearing on anything else. Sometimes myths have a lot of truth in them.

So RIP, Mr. Graham.

I don't know that it's about "romanticizing picturesque poverty" like some sort of modern day Marie Antoinette. You don't necessarily want to be one of the rural homeless to respect the myth.

I think the myth of the Hobo / Swagman serves as an important reminder of a generation that withstood a lot that we're almost certainly not capable of withstanding. The myth reminds us that they did it while preserving their self-respect and freedom too. Did they? Of course not, or at least not all of them. But the Myth is there to inspire us. That's what myths are for.

BTW, the swagman isn't quite the same as the hobo, but the myths are pretty similar. The mythical story can be told honestly too without losing it's power.

Or, on preview, what cmonkey said (except I used a lot more hot air to say it).

The freedom to go anywhere you want on a whim without being tied down to one place and one or two dead end jobs is something that you can't ever appreciate if you haven't experienced it.

So's being able to shit indoors.

I think the myth of the Hobo / Swagman serves as an important reminder of a generation that withstood a lot that we're almost certainly not capable of withstanding.

True, but they did it because they had to, not for fun or some kind of Outward Bound trip.

and cmonkey, I'm not trying to attack you since you generally seem like an OK guy, but if you're smart enough to see through the bullshit myths of mainstream society, why do you seem so resistant to seeing through another set of bullshit myths.

And FWIW, Conover explicitly states that nothing would have pleased him more than to discover the hobo world Jack London and Jack Kerouac described but that's not what he found. He found a bunch of desperate, sad, messed up people We can't get upset with the world for not living up to our expectations.

"The freedom to go anywhere you want on a whim without being tied down to one place and one or two dead end jobs is something that you can't ever appreciate if you haven't experienced it."

True, but not having a warm place to sleep night after night is something that you can't ever appreciate if you haven't experienced it.

Enough jon...cmonkey hits it on the head. There are things that abject poverty and homelessness afford you. You don't have to have any interest in them, or you can simply choose your indoor shitting over them.

Doesn't mean that they aren't real pal.

Any other romantic notions you wanna shit on tonight? Cool mafia guys? Hitmen with hearts of gold? Mm?

I get the point about outward bound, but who's advocating that? Sheesh.
*Get's on Japanese V-twin, heads off to Hell's Dentists' Annual Poker Run*

Read You Can't Win Jon, it doesn't romanticize anything, tons of people on the bum to this day that aren't doing it for fun AND people can be interested in something and respect what it might have meant without being gullible about it...

Holy crap...that hobo's lullaby is purty.

I'd like to shit on cool mafia guys every night, personally. I mean, idolizing those guys is like calling Jesse James a Robin Hood. Lies told as legends obscure the nastiness of these criminals' actions, along with the bankruptcy of their causes. So fuck the mafia and anyone who likes it. Goddamn parasites.

And fuck Jesse James too, and anyone who likes him. I'm not talking about choppers here.

There are a lot of hobos down by where my brother lives in VA. They hang out between the schoolyard and the railroad tracks. I've spoken to a few of them, who seemed worn, drunk, and nice. They don't make me nervous, and I try to think of them the same way I do everyone else, but their mobility, anonymity, and possible criminality makes me feel protective regarding my nephew.

I should probably feel that way about everyone, but hobos wear their transience on their sleeves.

Any other romantic notions you wanna shit on tonight? Cool mafia guys? Hitmen with hearts of gold? Mm?

Gimme time. I'm working on it. The whole purpose of romantic myths is to keep people from facing reality and to ease their conscience ('it's not so bad...').

I'm ditching all my illusions, I see no reason why anybody else should be allowed theirs.

Cripes Hugh...don't take it so literally.

Cripes Hugh...don't take it so literally.

No, you go Hugh. A little literalness is just the antidote for this romantic crapola.

Romanticism abounds! What shall we do?!?

First, let's hate everything. Jon'll show us the way.

And since we're cross posting tonight:

Christ jon...go to bed. Take a look at the fella this post is about. He sounds like a hell of a guy, and was part of an interesting side of American history.

Maybe, just maybe, other people had different experiences that Conover. Just saying...maybe.

Great post ortho.

First, lets kill all the lawyers
THEN let's hate everything.

I like the ideas and myths of Jesse James and hobos and outlaws and all manner of other foolishness and I'm perfectly capable of keeping them separate from what life is really like.

I am also capable of drinking an assload of beers and rocking out with my glock out, such is my majesty. We are all of us sinners, thanks be to God.

The whole purpose of romantic myths is to keep people from facing reality and to ease their conscience ('it's not so bad...').

Says who? Sure, some myths are created by the ruling class, but some are created by the people. Jesse James was indeed a psychopathic turd of the first order, but the "Robin Hood" myth which he was appropriated into is quite revolutionary.

There are plenty of romantic myths that are designed to inspire revolutionary feelings. What's the legend of Joe Hill designed to do? Make us feel better?

assload = 1.2 metric buttload

The whole purpose of arguing that romantic myths are a waste of time is to convince other people that you're above their myths and, therefore, smarter and more well-informed than they are.

But don't ever think that you don't fall prey to your own romantic myths, and that you don't voice them constantly, because you probably do. And it's possible that they too are seen as silly by others who are just too polite (or maybe not so much) to say so.

It's a big, big world full of many individually held romantic myths.

Interesting...

I like the ideas and myths of Jesse James and hobos and outlaws and all manner of other foolishness and I'm perfectly capable of keeping them separate from what life is really like.

I'm falling in with the Wino here.

If you're falling in with the wino bring your glock Reckless Gaspode Kelly, we seem to be in bat country.

When I write something, there is no "whole purpose" to it. There's a lot behind what I say, and it's not just an attempt to shit on myths or what have you. It's a complex thought from a complex person, just like you. Same goes for anyone here. It could be said that the whole purpose to statements implying that "the whole purpose of such-and-such is so," is to pigeonhole, belittle, and project, at the expense of reasoned discussion and polite inquiry, one's own intolerance onto others. But that would be a silly and recursive argument, a real non-starter here, and would just work folks into a lather for nothing. P-b-b-b-b-b-b-t!

I think it all depends on the myths we're on about, and the realities behind the myths, and the purpose and origin of the myths in question, as well. I'm no expert, but I know people who've been terrorized by the mafia. When I see mafia family dramas showing us how human and funny these killers, thieves, and blackmailers can be, it pisses me off, because I am watching a dangerous myth being propagated. These people have bad reasons for the bad things they do, and these reasons are rarely reflected in scripts; mafiosi are cool and give us an excuse to idolize gun-toting criminals, which somehow makes some of us tougher.

Jesse James did all of his robberies with the express purpose of re-igniting the fires of the Civil War and doing battle against the Reconstructionists in the name of the Lost Cause. His Southern admirers saw this as a Robin Hood-like crusade against the carpetbaggers and black Federal troops occupying (and rebuilding) their territory. Somehow the palatable Robin Hood myth is the one that stayed, while the racist, secessionist reasons (which were central to Jesse's own personal mythology) disappeared.

I'm not talking about anyone else's views here, and I'm not telling anyone they're wrong. I'm saying what I know and how I feel about it. And I'm touchy about the idea of heroic mafiosi. Just ask jonmc.

And I'm also touchy about the one-dimensional dismissals that go on here all the time. Keep 'em coming, they only make you look smarter.

Hugh, back up and read what your friend wrote. You are, in fact, responding to him, not me. I know you'll go to any length to defend him -- and I admire that. But at least read the thread first.

I suppose with, say, Jesse James during the immediate aftermath of the "recent unpleasantness" there would be exactly that sort of concern. Glamourising any kind of violent thug is dangerous. But there's a reason why the racism and secessionism dropped out of the Jesse James legend; that's not what matters to it. The real Robin Hood (if there ever was one) may well have been a vicious thug too. The myth though is about standing up to oppression and injustice.

I think pirates are cool. I don't mean modern Indonesian pirates, I mean Long John Silver etc. Like Divine_Wino, I can separate the idea from the reality. On the other hand the Henry character in Goodfellas obviously bought the whole glamourous mobster image. I don't think glamourising pirates makes the situation in the Straits of Malacca any worse. You might well think that there are plenty of Henrys and potential Henrys out there. Hence the difference in opinion.

Jonmc's intention seems to be to remind people that being poor and homeless isn't glamourous. But he's missing the point (in my opinion) of the Hobo Myth. I'm sure we're all capable of keeping the two separate. I'm equally sure that none of us needed telling that poverty and homelessness are bad. So it comes down to whether we think the myth is about hiding or hiding from poverty and homelessness or whether it's about independence, resilience, freedom (with an existentialist sort of flavour), and self-reliance.

But he's missing the point (in my opinion) of the Hobo Myth. I'm sure we're all capable of keeping the two separate. I'm equally sure that none of us needed telling that poverty and homelessness are bad. So it comes down to whether we think the myth is about hiding or hiding from poverty and homelessness or whether it's about independence, resilience, freedom (with an existentialist sort of flavour), and self-reliance.

I don't think so. In Conover's book, just before he sets out on his trip, he goes to a 'hobo convention' that celebrates the whole myth. During a 'Hobo Of The Year' contest, one contestant pipes up and (bravely) says that 'this is fun, but it isn't what hobo-ing is. There's a lot of guys out there now, and they ain't having fun, they're hurting." The applause died pretty quick. And what Conover found were broken men, addicted men, mentally ill men. Granted they dealt with their situation in resourceful and interesting ways, but if you're expecting to meet Jack London out there, you probably wont. More likely guys like this or this.

You might well think that there are plenty of Henrys and potential Henrys out there

Checked the statistics on gang violence and organized carime lately? I'd say it's a pretty safe bet that they're out there by the truckload.

Oh, dear, mudpuppie. I clearly forgot to read the thread. My fault. I'm sorry. You win. Nothing I said has merit. Please don't forget what I said; in fact, could you hold it against me in case I require correction in the future?

I agreed with jonmc. And I don't like the way you rip into him and try to shut him up all the time. I shouldn't bother to jump in, as it just exacerbates unpleasantness, and I should know there's no room for dissent with you (at least from jonmc or, increasingly, me). Either agree with you, or shut up.

Unfortunately, I obviously didn't read the thread, or I'd be able to say, "read the thread. Jonmc agreed with me, and you shot him down using the same verbal formulation he did. So, knowing that I'd be including him, I suggested that the formulation was suspect, and in doing so, I tried to clothe a club in cotton. I also knew I'd be questioning jonmc's flat generalization, and I was okay with that. Of course, by continuing the formulation, I included myself in my own criticism, but that's my prerogative, and I thought that made it clear how spirally and stupid my (and your, and jon's) method of thinking was." But I must not have read the thread, or I would have been much more cogent and circumspect. In fact, if I'd read any of the rest of the thread, I clearly wouldn't have written anything at all.

I like this place, though I don't get here as much as I used to. I like these kinds of conversations, when folks aren't telling one another to shut up. I like you, mudpuppie, but the last few times I've been here you've given me a swift kick in the ass and a sharp stick in the eye.

I'm wrong a lot. I'll continue to be wrong a lot, throughout my life, though I hope I won't stay wrong about the same things for long. There's a difference between wrong and stupid, though; I'm not often stupid, and I resent being treated as if I were.

I'll even grant that I'm being paranoid; you probably aren't targeting me, but from my myopic and infrequent view, it seems clear that you are. I hope I'm wrong. Actually, I hope I'm being stupid. It would make things better.

Sure there are plenty of guys who are petty mobsters. I meant I didn't think there were as many who were in it because of the "tv tells me wiseguys are cool" thing.

We're talking past each other here though. Or maybe I just misread what you were saying. I was talking about the myth not the facts. Telling me what Indonesian pirates get up to won't make me stop thinking that pirates (parrot, dubloons, treasure maps, etc) are cool. Unless you're suggesting that Graham was involved in some of that stuff.

But the links you provided just then made me think about it again. I thought the hobo life was rough, but it seems there are elements of organised crime in there too. (I'm talking about the reality now, not the myth). Thanks for putting me onto that, I'll have to read the Conover book now.

Sure there are plenty of guys who are petty mobsters. I meant I didn't think there were as many who were in it because of the "tv tells me wiseguys are cool" thing.

They're in it for the obvious reasons anybody's into anything: Pussy & Money (or Ego). And media portrayals of organized crime and gangsterism pretty much portray it as the easiest road to those things with a badass rep thrown into the bargain. As does what they see from the real gangsters they encounter.

Gecko Dundee: The Conover book dosen't mention the FTRA, that didn't become common public knowledge till years later. It's more about how the hobo's lot is more sad and dangerous than picturesque.

In retrospect, the FTRA/Silveria/Martinez thing should be a no-brainer. There's a lot of ex-cons out there with no money in rural areas, so it stands to reason they'd ride the rails. And a lot of ex-cons are into gangsterism, white supremacy/ethnic gangs, weird sex shit etc. so it's not suprising it'd show up there.
hugh, pup: chill out, already. I'm not here to sow discord, just speak my mind. If people wanna hear it, cool. If they don't that's cool, too. But I'll always say what I think.

I'm sorry, guys. I'm sorry, mudpuppie. It's unreasonable for me to bring all this up in thread, and really I should just avoid the argy-bargy, though I think it's the most valuable thing we have here sometimes.

Sorry to air my persecution complex; it's doubtless a coincidence that has a lot more to do with my behavior than with mudpuppie's.

I'd like to apologize for consistently making this a nastier place, with what I say and what I leave to others to say.

For the record, I do happen to agree with what jonmc's saying, and I'm not just some lacky guard dog out for a fight, or some knee-jerker who jumps in without reading or thinking. It may not seem that way.

I'm trying to address facts and opinions around here, not the behavior or personalities of the posters. At this, in this thread, I've failed. I'm sorry, mudpuppie. And I'm sorry to everyone else.

Having spent some time on the bum -- hitchhiking across America to start a new life with $15 in my pocket -- I can testify that there are ups and downs to the vagabond life. The best meal I ever had was a can of beans, a can of Pepsi and a Three Musketeers bar. Served up in splendor over a can of Sterno in Golden Gate park at the end of a very interesting day. Worst time of my life followed shortly thereafter. It's a life of contrasts.

I solidly recommend You Can't Win by Jack Black. It romanticizes nothing about the hobo life.

We are obviously well past the point where anything can be made of this, but I would like to say for the record:

There are comments that are made in the name of "just speaking one's mind" or "setting the record straight" or even "dispelling myths" that have as a seemingly unintended consequence an effect of sounding quite condescending and frankly dismissive. I think that is unfortunate and contrary to what makes this place good. I am not talking about enforced niceness or any kind of social censorship here, I'm talking about a willing give and take in the form of framing one's comments in such a way as to offer respect in kind to others.

If I am to speak my mind then I would say, to me, manners matter more than anything else, this does not preclude disagreement or even the drawing of blood. It does, however, demand that you care about how you say something, not just what you say. I've gutted way too many people online to ever pretend that politeness trumps everything else, but I prefer that the formalities be observed, the salute, the crossing of swords, the bow. To me the benefit of this is that when offense is NOT INTENDED then none is given and the friendly conversation continues without drama.

My point, in belated brief, is this:

If I want to communicate and enjoy conversation I don't walk into the salon with guns blazing and devil take the hindmost, I never ever fail to speak my mind nonetheless. However we all have different goals and priorities and that is as it should be.

That's a great point, Divine_Wino, and I'll take it as advice.

I knew there was a reason I wrote you into my will (you get my matched pair of 1850 Liege-made .36 caliber smooth-bore octagonal-barrelled percussion duelling pistols and my substantial debt to the crown, plus a $50 gift certificate to Chuck E. Cheese's Pizza Time Theater and my multi-city season ticket to the Pro Bull Riding Circuit. You'll make out like a [mythological] bandit).

Pistols at twenty paces? We proceed at dawn, unless you are prepared to withdraw the remark? Perhaps you were in wine? A general expression of regret would do, I must warn you, my man is deadly.

No sir, I was not in my cups. I was in my mirrors and in my chillums, I'll thank you to note.

Hugh if you ever have the chance, read everything that Patrick O' Brian wrote and we'll invent a time machine and go back to the Napoleonic wars and drink confusion to the pope!

"Gentlemen, in the Royal Navy we have the privilege of drinking the Kings health while seated"

Okay, but you know I'll be unable to resist putting LSD in Wellington's sherry.

Also we could invent the electromagnet ten years early.

On second thought, if I went I'd probably wind up syphilitic. Ah, what the hell, y'only live forever.

Wino, man, you can make a point. Well done sir.

Seriously, y'all, the last thing I want is some kind of half-assed war over something I tossed off when I was in a bad mood. It's done.

I don't think it was a war as much as an extended outburst on my part, already over and apologized for. Right now I'm more interested in the effects of modern psychotropic drugs on historical figures. And the strange world we live in, wherein one can order all sorts of clothes off the internet to be delivered by mail to one's home; at the same time, sizing differences between brands and styles have never been greater. We need standardization more than ever. We need sizes that relate to actual measurements that shoppers can take themselves. What we get is sizes that have been skewed to pander to the customer's sense of self -- extra-large L's at stores frequented by big fellas who are shy about being XL, and medium L's at stores whose clientele is fashionably bird-chested. I don't think there's anything wrong with either of these situations: online shopping is good, and sizing changes to boost customer self-esteem is good business. But put together, they're terrible.

Why We Fight #243

Yes, exactly.

Wow, this got crazy while I was out.

if you're smart enough to see through the bullshit myths of mainstream society, why do you seem so resistant to seeing through another set of bullshit myths.

Because I've lived the life and can say that some parts of that myth have merit. You make all the snarky remarks about sleeping under bridges you want, but the freedom will always call to people.

Dude, it's not even snark. I envy freedom of mobility as much as any other person chained to a desk. But I also realize that sleeping outdoors in the cold and eating out of dumpsters can't be any kind of fun. And, I do sincerely think that the idea that it's all some Big Rock candy Mountain thing does distract from the fact that there are people out there who are really suffering, is what bugs me.

Okay, jon, you pretty much own this thread, right? And we've had our requisite discussion about jonmc in this thread, so I think you can relax now.

I don't believe there's even the tiniest chance that anyone might not get what you are saying here. If someone has anything at all different to say, it does not require you to once more reiterate what you've already said eight times. It really doesn't.