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31 October 2006

Do you find lack of ambition to be weird or worse?→[More:] I'm beginning to find out that my relative lack of ambition seems odd to people.

I was just smoking with two co-workers, one of whom is this girl from Texas who's nice enough, but reminds me of that chick in that Mary Tyler Moore style Citibank commercial. All 'you're gonna make it after all' and shit. She's also about 10 years younger than me and advanced alarmingly quick and makes at least twice what I do, making it almost enough to live on.

Anyway, we got an email about upper-level 'restructuring' here at DumbCo and was all agitato about what it meant for the company's future. I was frankly amazed at how much she cared. I just said that we (me and the other present coworker, Joe Famous) were merely digital assembly line drones and as long as it didn't effect which holes our digital screws went in, it mattered not a whit. She seemed vaguely irked.

But on the elevator it occurred to me that even I myself was amazed at how little I cared. For years, I've been somewhat intimidated by (RL and online) cohorts who've accomplished more, overcome more, or come from more illustrious backgrounds. This has made me occasionally defensive and has the side effect of my writing tending to inflate trivial misadventures and haplessness into pseudo-profundity.

But I think I've realized that I don't really want to accomplish anything. It all seems like so damn much work. Sometimes just hearing what other people make for dinner or do for halloween or 'fun' projects or to 'keep up,' is exhausting to me. I'd rather just screw around on the internet, drink beer and read books.

People seem to think this is strange. I think even I do, a little. Is this a bad thing or is that just residual Catholicism rearing it's ugly head.

post by: jonmc at: 11:40 | 45 comments

It's not the Catholicism, Johnny, but rock 'n roll.

posted by item 31 October | 11:42

I was comtemplating this this morning, sitting in court. I don't have more to say than, yes, people think this is strange and I, myself, miss that urgency I had at 10 years younger than me, to *do* something, whereas now, I just want the weekend free to sit with the Guy and play Resident Evil 4 for twelve hours straight.

(I don't think it's Catholicism, as much as it is American Dreamism, although we are taught in CCD that squandering our God-given gifts is a sin.)

posted by crush-onastick 31 October | 11:45

After graduating college, I didn't really feel any pull to "do" anything. Which ended up with me in my current job, where it's pretty much the "I don't really care, just sign my paycheck" mentality I think you're describing. It's fine -- I do some work, I get to leave it totally behind at the end of the day, I have the time and energy to care about more interesting things.

Huge tragic life upheavals about two years ago made me realize I wasn't living the life I wanted, and made me do some hard thinking about what that life might be. Talking to people who were living their values in a way I liked, and realizing I wasn't really, helped. And all that prompted the back-to-school thing, which very naturally turned me into someone who's never cared about five- or ten-year plans into someone who suddenly feels like I have a *goal*, and it's a goal I like, and a goal I want to work hard to keep achieving.

So for me, right now, it's simply been a matter of finding something I'm interested enough in and inspired enough by to be ambitious about.

People who are just ambitious for the sake of being ambitious, without really believing in the things they're bringing into the world beyond their monetary value, I do find weird and unsettling.

posted by occhiblu 31 October | 11:48

I don't know, Run-JMC. I face a lot of what you're talking about also, but for me, it's not about lack of ambition, per se, it's more like being nauseous at how people take corporate stuff so seriously. I think the hard part is in realizing that you're different from so many other people around you, and you have to carve your own life out of the granite block, rather than just being handed a mold of Former Employee Soft Soap to climb into.

I think everyone is ambitious, just not in the same way and when you're surrounded by hundreds of people doing something that that you think is silly, it makes you doubt yourself just from the sheer numbers.

Or, you know, yeah, it's just rock and roll.

You're fine, man. Carry on.

posted by Lipstick Thespian 31 October | 11:49

I'm not sure what's behind lack of ambition. I just find projects and worklike activity satisfying. It can get exhausting, but it's all fun for me. Nothing feels better than looking at a publication or event or entity that I've helped to bring into existence. There is a joy in the creation.

As to ambition, I don't seek titles or vast amounts of money, but I do want to feel that I have the power to create and to bring myself (and others) great experiences.

Believe me, I love to lie on the beach and read and relax. But if I reached the end of my life and all I had to show was a string of leisure hours, no matter how happily spent, I'd feel deeply sad. Even when things are hard, the level of satisfaction to be derived from having a life of meaning and impact is, to me, much greater than the satisfaction of indulging our natural human tendencies toward sloth. I know it feels like we want sloth, but it doesn't truly create the most satisfying outcome. To me, anyway.

I know lots of people that seem happy to punch a clock, go home, watch movies, call in takeout, shop on the weekends, do that all year, and call that a life. It's just not enough for me. I get bored.

posted by Miko 31 October | 11:50

Ambition is such a funny thing. A lot of people think that because I have acting/musical talent, I want to be a *Broadway Star*, and because I'm not pursuing that, I gave up on my dream or something. But it was never my dream- I learned that during high school; being an actress would bore me to tears. I like what I do now, sitting at an office, crunching numbers, learning about finance. It's funny how we all run around judging what we think other people should/want to do with their lives. I say, do what you want and have fun. :-)

posted by ThePinkSuperhero 31 October | 11:50

It's not the Catholicism, Johnny, but rock 'n roll.

Heh. Even people keeping up with 'the music scene' is exhausting to me. I was looking at some old mp3's and realized that 7 years ago, I still make a half-hearted attempt to keep up with new stuff, but since then I've just wandered off into my own ozone.

I don't think it's Catholicism, as much as it is American Dreamism, although we are taught in CCD that squandering our God-given gifts is a sin

I only have God-given gifts, only booby prizes. (only half-kidding, being a good online quipster and making good mixes aren't really 'skills' and even if they are, they're kinda worthless, but I have fun with them).

posted by jonmc 31 October | 11:50

But what if my God-given gift is to be very good at not doing anything?

I also feel a distinct lack of ambition that most of my fellow students seem to feel. I would much rather be a peon in someone else's lab than to start one of my own (ugh, the work!). I'd rather have my evenings and weekend free than to be the head honcho.

posted by LunaticFringe 31 October | 11:50

Agreed with what occhi and LT seem to be saying about 'ambition for ambition's sake.' I think that stuff results from just plain status-seeking, and that kind of ambition (sharklike?) creeps me out.

But having passion for something and pursuing it --whether it's your paying job or your avocation doesn't matter -- that, I think, is just a necessary ingredient of a life well lived.

posted by Miko 31 October | 11:53

me too, LF, me too. I am currently wrangling through this with my boss, who is a little horrified at having a post-doc come out of her lab with no plans to fight for a faculty position somewhere.

posted by gaspode 31 October | 11:54

But having passion for something and pursuing it

well, I like music, but I don't make it and the last thing the world needs another typewriter tapper (we're all just crappers). But whatever it is, it all just seems like so damned much pressure and that dosen't hold any appeal for me anymore (I don't know if it ever did beyond daydream level stuff) in work or in other pursuits. The idea of a (non-horrible) job that provides enough to live on and have my usual fun with and time to screw around seems almost like...enough. Maybe, I'm crazy.

posted by jonmc 31 October | 11:58

Well, clearly you have SOME ambition, jonmc. There are people who don't even care enough to have jobs to support themselves.

posted by ThePinkSuperhero 31 October | 12:00

That's not ambition, pink. That's survival instinct and work ethic. If I had enough money to manage it, I'd probably just screw around all the time.

posted by jonmc 31 October | 12:03

My ambition is to make enough money so that I can actually save some of it, and to have enough time to raise kids and go fishing every once in awhile.

posted by sciurus 31 October | 12:06

I think that counts for something.

posted by ThePinkSuperhero 31 October | 12:08

Stay just the way you are man. That's something you don't need ambition to do.
One thing I know is that if we didn't come in all shapes, sizes and colors, the world would be horrible!

I dig havin' ya here on Earth dude..so not to worry. BE YOU!

posted by Joe Famous 31 October | 12:09

Oh, I'm not having a crisis or anything, just one of those 'hmmm?' moments.

I hear what a bunch of you are saying about amitious folks. I've met many who quite frankly scare me a little. I always wonder what would happen if you somehow came between them and something they wanted.

posted by jonmc 31 October | 12:13

it all just seems like so damned much pressure

I think that might be the idea to examine. Why should something you want to do feel like it's creating pressure? Where's this pressure coming from? Are you afraid of the risks inherent in pursuing that - that if you did more writing and didn't have success, it would be some sort of blow to your sense of self?

Why dismiss the value and joy you find in doing something you love ("the last thing the world needs another typewriter tapper")? You're entitled to do what you love whether or not anyone wants to read/hear/see/whatever it. I can point to a lot of writers who could have said that at some moment in their careers, and since they didn't, they make a living writing.

Who cares what the world seems to need? Sometimes the world doesn't know what it needs until you offer it. If there's something that brings you satisfaction, do it! You don't even have to do it for your living - that's why the phrase 'day job' was coined.

On the other hand, if you are content, then it's certainly okay for people just to be content with balancing work with R & R. It's a valid choice and a lot of people do it and feel completely comfortable with it. If you were content with it, I do wonder if you'd be posting the question...But maybe you're in the processing of just accepting what feels like enough for you.

posted by Miko 31 October | 12:16

I like teaching, most days; I think it makes a difference, sometimes. I wanna write my books; I don't care about "fame," per se (in fact, I'd prefer to remain anonymous, like Pynchon, let the books speak for itself), but I'd like them to be read in the unfathomed future and yet undiscovered universes (how's that for ego?). But I know none of it matters. We're all so small, so finite. In a way, you got the right idea; just relax, enjoy being alive (we're priveleged to do so, even on this little rock in the cosmos). Hell, zen masters spend lifetimes searching for such acceptance and peace, if that's what it is (it may also be depression, which is quite another thing... speaking as one who spent a year on the sofa after grad school watching the Price Is Right). I don't know love... whatever you wanna do (or not do), I'm with ya. Most people's "ambition" is just shit anyway, including my own (you didn't know I was the nihilist in the couple, did ya? : ). Try not to take anything so seriously, maybe, including not taking anything so seriously...

*joins jon on couch, sips drink, munches chips*

posted by Pips 31 October | 12:20

*joins jonmc and pips on the couch*

Pass the chips, please. Oooo, Doritos!

posted by ThePinkSuperhero 31 October | 12:24

Sometimes what looks like ambition is actually sloth in disguise. I've discovered that it's actually easier to have a more challenging job and make more money than it is to be poor and have a crappy job that isn't too hard to do. Not having enough money takes so much work--everything is a struggle. Money may not buy happiness, but it does buy convenience.

posted by pickles 31 October | 12:25

Peter Gibbons: Our high school guidance counselor used to ask us what you'd do if you had a million dollars and you didn't have to work. And invariably what you'd say was supposed to be your career. So, if you wanted to fix old cars then you're supposed to be an auto mechanic.
Samir: So what did you say?
Peter Gibbons: I never had an answer. I guess that's why I'm working at DumbCo
...
Peter Gibbons: What would you do if you had a million dollars?
Lawrence: I'll tell you what I'd do, man: two chicks at the same time, man.
Peter Gibbons: That's it? If you had a million dollars, you'd do two chicks at the same time?
Lawrence: Damn straight. I always wanted to do that, man. And I think if I were a millionaire I could hook that up, too; 'cause chicks dig dudes with money.
Peter Gibbons: Well, not all chicks.
Lawrence: Well, the type of chicks that'd double up on a dude like me do.
Peter Gibbons: Good point.
Lawrence: Well, what about you now? what would you do?
Peter Gibbons: Besides two chicks at the same time?
Lawrence: Well, yeah.
Peter Gibbons: Nothing.
Lawrence: Nothing, huh?
Peter Gibbons: I would relax... I would sit on my ass all day... I would do nothing.
Lawrence: Well, you don't need a million dollars to do nothing, man. Take a look at my cousin: he's broke, don't do shit.

posted by seanyboy 31 October | 12:29

Another thing that is difficult sometimes is the day job vs. What You Really Do aspect of life, career choices, etc. One of the things I'm facing now as a NE-er is so many people come up to me and say, right off the bat, "so what do you do?". And that blows my mind, because when I say actor/writer/artist, I kind of step down a little in their eyes, at least that's how I'm hearing it.

The pressure to be recognizable to someone else is very strong. Many times out here I've felt compelled to make up something that sounds more tangible monetarily than what I love in this world, just for the sake of appearance. I'm fortunate that the majority of the folks I've met here are mainly artistic types, and I'm surrounded by people who I don't need to explain myself to much.

posted by Lipstick Thespian 31 October | 12:29

Not if your ambition is to get high and watch TV all day...

/Jackie Brown

posted by WolfDaddy 31 October | 12:30

My ambitions.

1) Have fun & to be creative.
2) Make enough money to allow me to do #1.

posted by seanyboy 31 October | 12:31

One of the things I'm facing now as a NE-er is so many people come up to me and say, right off the bat, "so what do you do?". And that blows my mind, because when I say actor/writer/artist, I kind of step down a little in their eyes, at least that's how I'm hearing it.

I dunno, the artistic/creative world seems to be as competetive and ambitious as anywhere else. I remember I once went to a gig of a musician freind (and fellow mefite) and when I was outside smoking a friend of his peered at me and said "who are you again?" "Jonmc." "what do you do?" "Data entry." "No, I mean what's your ambition." "Um, survival?"

Strange, but very New York, moment.

posted by jonmc 31 October | 12:36

To paraphrase seanyboy, I think I've approached the question of ambition by asking myself first

What do I want to do?

And second

OK then, what do I need to do so that I can do what I want to do?

I never wanted anyone else to dictate how I spent my time against my will -- even my working time. It's so important to me to have employment that I freely chose and that I find engaging, not to feel like I'm in the salt mines all day and just watching the clock. If it takes some amount of work to get to that point, it's worth it to me.

posted by Miko 31 October | 12:38

LT, yes, that "So, what do you do?" as the opening salvo of any conversation in Boston and Washington DC always annoyed me. I was rather excited to get away from it out West.

posted by occhiblu 31 October | 12:45

I was rather excited to get away from it out West.

Having spent my entire working life in the Northeast, it astounded me to hear LT say that this is not the way introductions begin out West.

posted by Miko 31 October | 12:48

Some of the Silicon Valley types do it out here, but it can draw glares. At least from me.

I actually first heard complaints about it from French friends in Boston, who were appalled that Americans spent so much free time talking about their jobs.

posted by occhiblu 31 October | 12:52

Agreed with what occhi and LT seem to be saying about 'ambition for ambition's sake.' I think that stuff results from just plain status-seeking, and that kind of ambition (sharklike?) creeps me out.

I agree. Fighting for promotions and raises takes a big toll and people don't like to admit that. Of course you should make enough to live. But making more than that is optional and people should be realistic about keeping balanced lives. I know so many corporate climbers who don't know how to be happy or enjoy a beautiful day.

My high school shop teacher once told me that he makes enough to put his kids in state college, have beers in the back yard with his friends, and take the family to Disneyland once a year, and that's all he needs. I thought that was really wise.

And LT, when people are going to be judgmental I just lie about what I do. That's my two cents :) For example, when all the work I could find was a minimum wage temp job for a bank, I told people I worked for the bank. When people asked what I did for the bank, I said I worked on the documents. I said it firmly so they wouldn't ask questions. Then they assumed that I did something important with them (I could have even said it was confidential, now that I think about it.). Nobody needed to know that I was filing documents for minimum wage.

posted by halonine 31 October | 12:53

Heh, appropriately enough, we just got e-mails that it's time to do our semi-annual 'self-evaluations,' next week. Can I just scrawl 'I AM TEH SUXX0RS. LET ME OUT OF HERE!' on it in crayon and be done with it?

posted by jonmc 31 October | 12:58

I've never lived in a place where at least a chunk of the population didn't ask "What do you do?" Ugh.

My formidably elegant, highly presentable mom discovered she could shut that down pretty fast by answering "Dog impressions."

posted by tangerine 31 October | 13:25

Living in DC, I can certainly say that lack of ambition is viewed with suspicion here. I like what Pips says about relaxing and just enjoying being alive. My dad worked 60 hours a week hsi whole life, and died a week before his retirement party. Sure, I have a good stable job, and make my house, car, and child-support payments, but I see nothing wrong with cruising.

posted by mrmoonpie 31 October | 13:39

"Dog impressions."

Hahaha! I like this approach. The possibilities are endless.

"A dandy little softshoe!" [breaks into tapdance]

"Why, whomever I please, of course!" [with Mae West purr]

"A fabulous four-course dinner for 12!"

etc.

posted by Miko 31 October | 13:45

Work More, Earn Less:

The study, by Northeastern's Center for Labor Market Studies, found the state's median annual earnings, adjusted for inflation, have risen just $546 -- 1.2 percent -- since 1989. Meanwhile, productivity, or the amount produced by a worker in the same amount of time, soared nearly 50 percent in that period.

In other words, the typical employee is working harder, faster, and smarter, but getting few of the benefits, said Andrew Sum, the center's director and study's lead author.

Meanwhile:

The Economic Policy Institute, a liberal think tank in Washington, said earlier this year that the average U.S. CEO earned 821 times as much as a minimum wage worker -- the highest gap ever. As recently as 1978, CEOs were paid only 78 times as much as minimum wage earners, the institute said.

Sure makes me all ambitious and tingly! Well, mostly just tingly. Wait. No, not tingly, mad.

posted by Otis 31 October | 13:58

Otis, I happen to know that DumbCo's head mucketymuck's net worth is at or near a BILLION dollars*. And yet, once I rode an elevator with him and his wife who was henpecking the everloving hell out of him over something. Gratifying, that.

*He also apparently was a roadie for the Grateful Dead briefly. I hate BoBo's and hippie entrepreneurs especially.

posted by jonmc 31 October | 14:07

TPS: They're Pepper Ranch Doritos... Care for some dip? : )

Thanks, mrmoonpie... so sorry about your dad. My father's, and birth mother's, deaths put a lot of perspective on things for me... all those fights with my father, it all seems so silly now... he used to try to instruct me on how to tear toilet paper, for christ's sake... it's hilarious in retrospect. I'd like to think it'd be different if he were alive now, but he was a difficult man; ultimately, the best I could do was avoid (I wish I was a wiser person). Still, I'd sure like to hug the bony old bastard's shoulders once more...

posted by Pips 31 October | 15:24

I am ambitious. It leaves me no peace.

posted by LarryC 31 October | 16:58

But Brutus said Larry was ambitious,
And Brutus is an honorable man.

posted by occhiblu 31 October | 17:40

Damn, I wish I would've noticed this thread earlier...I was just thinking about this topic, but perhaps from the opposite angle.

I'm just entering my fifth week at the first 40/hr week job I've ever had. I spent the last three years in the Bay Area and NYC doing 90-hour weeks at a big investment bank. Just this summer I had enough and decided to reclaim my personal life, notch down the ambition and move back to my friends and family in AZ. I have a mostly stress-free job that pays well and has good upside. My good friend and I have NHL season tickets--something that would've been impossible with my old job.

I'm thinking of calling my old boss in California to see if they'll hire me back. I have a sickness.

posted by mullacc 31 October | 19:02

I guess I never had ambition. As I get older, there are so many things that interest me that I could have gone into, but I had no drive, no direction. I got caught up in a job as a teenager at a supermarket chain, eventually getting full-time, and department manager status. But that's as far as I want to get. I don't want store manager status, I like leaving my job behind me at the end of the day. I like having a flexible enough job where I can catch a presentation at my kids' school in the middle of the week/day. So many of my college bound friends constantly questioned me, "Why don't you do something with your art? What about college?" As for my art, I don't like being forced to be creative every day. And as for my college bound friends-one graduated with a degree in a field he'd come to detest, and has spent the last nine years "working on his Master's" one class at a time. All of them lost jobs due to downsizing and lay offs. Yet I'm still working. Ambition for me, I think, is having a roof over my head, bills paid, time with my family, a decent sized pension, and time to persue things I truly find rewarding. I do get tired of being treated like a second class citizen for working in a food store (I even toyed with the idea of hiding that fact when I first joined you bunnies). But I find a great deal of joy in my regular customers, helping strangers, and laughing with co-workers. And having enough time to check in with all of you!

posted by redvixen 31 October | 19:48

I agree with pickles. Now that I have a 'good' job, my life is much easier, and really, requires much less motivation on my part, than it did when I was, say, working at a deli.

Not only that - and I've always been fascinated by this - the more the job pays, the easier it is to do. Now, it might require more training, or more intelligence, but assuming that you have (or can fake) those things, working a salaried corporate job is, in the greater scheme of things, very easy. All the ones I've had, at least.

posted by bingo 31 October | 19:50

In honor of this whole discussion, here's a song that sums it all up...

posted by jonmc 31 October | 20:06

Coming in late...I've known since I was five that I was a writer ( and EAT SHIT those who say it's self-indulgent), albeit not a disciplined one; this is what I need to do with my life and what fulfills me.

posted by brujita 01 November | 01:59

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