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MetaChat is an informal place for MeFites to touch base and post, discuss and chatter about topics that may not belong on MetaFilter. Questions? Check the FAQ. Please note: This is important.

19 October 2006

Sticky Wickets: what do you think about this? We have so many posts every day, it's really easy to miss things, and I thought maybe we could bump some to the top for a while for especially interesting participation posts (play-along games, particularly interesting questions, meet-ups, collaborations, etc.) using the sticky function seanyboy has concocted for us. Update: No way, Jose. Ain't gonna happen. Forget about it. Calm down. Relax.→[More:]

For example, I just bumped up the "something weird you've found in your house?" post. [update: never mind.]

At the moment, the only visual signifier is a border at the bottom of the post, because I'm kind of hoping to keep it sort of subtle... but if it seems too low-key, I could come up with some kind of icon or something.

The thing is that once the "stickyness" is removed, it will return to it's regular place in the pile, and this might confuse people a bit. But regular users would soon get used it, I think. I wouldn't want 10 sticky things at the top, but there are so many nice &/or important things that go by the wayside in only a few hours just because of volume.

How do you feel about this idea?
post by: taz at: 02:01 | 123 comments
Also, I'm now seeing we sort of have an issue with the date thing... but, anyway...
posted by taz 19 October | 02:05
I think the concept is great, taz, especially as one who due to circs can only drop in. I'm not keen on the underline, though--it breaks up the flow too much, IMHO, and changes the feel of the page completely. Maybe some other sort of indicator, such as a change in background colour or a wee zombie bunnyhead beside it like a bullet?
posted by elizard 19 October | 02:09
I prefer the coloring to the line.
Also, there is an issue with the dates. Until that's sorted, it's probably best to change the date on any sticky posts to todays date.
posted by seanyboy 19 October | 02:12
Let me see what other ideas I can come up with for signifying... the background seems a little more disruptive to me, plus then I have to give the posts more padding so the background doesn't bump right into the text, which means they don't line up on the left with the other posts. Still... it may turn out better with a background. We can try different things.
posted by taz 19 October | 02:15
I really dislike the concept of stickies in a big way. The move to the top of the role, for some posts, by a select few, just seems to negate the role of a community site.

But then I am a bit of a curmudgeon.
posted by arse_hat 19 October | 02:20
Well, this is what I want to hear about, though.

Here's how I feel: we don't have any kind of limits on numbers of posts people can make, or quality of posts, so people can just post "I'm eating a booger" and that's okay... some things are just surreal riffs and total foolishness, but since it's so wide open, it seems to me like some convention for drawing attention to useful or interesting participation posts would be helpful.
posted by taz 19 October | 02:29
When the sticky posts lose their stickiness, will the original date be restored, or will they retain the new "post" date?
posted by Daniel Charms 19 October | 02:33
They would have their original date... we (read: seanyboy. heh) just have to fix it so that they go under the current date, regardless of when they were posted.
posted by taz 19 October | 02:38
i'm in ur nose eating ur boogers
posted by deborah 19 October | 02:39
"it seems to me like some convention for drawing attention to useful or interesting participation posts would be helpful."

I think the number of responses does that already. I think the stickiness just adds a dimension of cliquishness as the right side column already draws attention to very important stuff.
posted by arse_hat 19 October | 02:44
Howzabout we try the idea until the end of October, and then decide.

] I think I just sneezed out a deborah. [
posted by mischief 19 October | 02:50
"...some things are just surreal riffs and total foolishness, but since it's so wide open, it seems to me like some convention for drawing attention to useful or interesting participation posts would be helpful."
posted by taz 19 October

Just a johnny-come-lately's viewpoint, but part of the charm of this site is sortin' the pile of chaff for the widow's mite of wheat it might contain, on any given day.

Still, the sticky thing might be great to have in reserve for the Second Coming, or events of similar broad interest. Just because a nun can wear lipstick, doesn't mean she needs to do so.
posted by paulsc 19 October | 02:50
Ack, please don't start the 'choice feminism' debate!
posted by mischief 19 October | 02:57
I like the idea of a trial period, mischief... just to see how it might work, or not work, and see if it feels, well... not "cliquey", because that would just be like, if you're a popular person, your post gets to be sticky? That's not going to happen. But, maybe if it does feel unfair, or people are saying "hey, why is that one sticky, and this one isn't?" then obviously it won't have been a good idea.
posted by taz 19 October | 03:06
I agree with everything arsey has said.

Personally, I read all of the day's posts when I get up in the morning, and then throughout the day I follow the ones that are interesting to me. Other people may utilize the site differently, and I understand that. But for me, it's not really necessary to have certain posts highlighted and stickied -- I'm going to seek out the ones that I like, regardless of where they fall on the page. And plus, the ones that some people might find interesting aren't necessarily interesting to me. So in that sense, the sticky thing might get annoying.

Two cents.
posted by mudpuppie 19 October | 03:12
After having posted that, and having looked again at the front page, I'm even more opposed to the idea. The What Did You Find In Your House thing is really interesting. But at a glance I already know that there have been 3 new comments since I read it last. So it doesn't need to be above all the other new posts for me to read it. Know what I mean?
posted by mudpuppie 19 October | 03:16
That's okay... I want everyone's opinions, and it seems like people are hating the idea mostly, but that's why I posted it.

I personally end up missing a lot of stuff that I would have like to read or add to, but a good bit of that may be the time zone problem.
posted by taz 19 October | 03:21
And one more thing... (I actually had to get dressed again to come in here and post this. And I'm not wearing my glasses, so forgive any typos.)

What if 4 posts were made sticky in one day? That would mean that you'd have to scroll past thhm, all day long, just to get to the new stuff.
posted by mudpuppie 19 October | 03:24
Well, it's not like they're going to be sticking themselves up there - it would just be me and iconomy, pretty much, and we have pretty good judgement. There would never be a pile of sticky posts to wade through.
posted by taz 19 October | 03:29
The line was confusing me. The colored background was more obvious and less cluttered, strangely enough.
posted by loquacious 19 October | 04:58
Actually, seanyboy has it figured I think: above the top date, one line at the bottom. If that doesn't look okay, we can try a background, or more likely, just nothing since it will be above the date, which I think is really good.
posted by taz 19 October | 05:04
I like the idea. Definitely give it a trial run at least. For example, it was very helpful when the fund-raising posts were up.
posted by BoringPostcards 19 October | 06:26
what arse_hat and mudpuppie said.
posted by essexjan 19 October | 06:56
I don't mind the idea of stickies, but I'm in the "they're cliquey" camp; I'd prefer it if they were kept to site announcements or messages from the admins. The yellow circle has been a great place to feature non-admin threads - I like it because it doesn't get in the way and there is only room for one link so there is no temptation to overload us with stickies.

Also, I think a simple "sticky" icon and maybe a slight indent would be preferable to the line or to a different background color.
posted by mike9322 19 October | 07:29
I liked the different colouring as opposed to the line. As for the topic of stickies in general: meh, I'm 100% indifferent. I tend to scan the whole site and follow the threads I'm interested in regardless of where they fall on the page (much like mudpup does).
posted by LunaticFringe 19 October | 08:03
I'm going to argue again for either a colored background or the "sticky" icon, from a purely user-interface standpoint, because:

At first glance at the page it's very easy to think nothing new has been posted.

Also, I'm going to agree with mike9322, arse_hat and mudpuppie that it might just be too cliquey.
posted by loquacious 19 October | 08:06
I'm with the 'no' crowd. Just let things happen naturally. LET'S GO METS!
posted by jonmc 19 October | 08:13
I like using the circle in the top right-hand corner (when I can see it...). Go circle!
posted by muddgirl 19 October | 08:42
Well, it definitely looks like we won't do it... unless there turns out to be an assload of late-waking, sticky-loving people, but I don't understand the "cliquey" thing?

Are all of you guys saying that I would only choose someone's post to make sticky if they were a special friend of mine? I love game posts, like the things-to-buy-at-walmart-to-freak-out-the-cashier post, and the blogstop post or whatever it was called - those sorts of things, and sometimes we have posts that need people to "sign up" to participate in something, and there are often meetup posts... How are those things cliquey? I'm not that invested in this idea, so no big deal, but I'm kind of bewildered by that reason.
posted by taz 19 October | 08:47
What's all this gooey stuff on my monitor??
posted by JanetLand 19 October | 08:53
I'm a late waking (yeah, right: 6:45 out walking dogs in the fog, just late getting to work ;-) ) sticky lover. I think it's a good idea - I would have missed the house thread otherwise and I don't think it's cliquey at all. What I really like though is what Mofi has: that sidebar of threads with recent comments that then get resurrected and revived. I like conversations that go on for years. So I vote to keep the sticky notes with possibly a design tweak to make them less obtrusive.
posted by mygothlaundry 19 October | 09:23
I don't like it at all.
posted by thirteenkiller 19 October | 09:28
I'm not anti-sticky per-se, but I like the circle, and I liked the slightly-darker background used for the fundraiser posts, and I'd like it if it was on the side bar (like MoFi - recent comments on the side bar). The line makes it obtrusive if I think about it, but also confuses me if I just glance at the front page - I'll think "oh, no new posts", because I've already read those titles.
posted by muddgirl 19 October | 09:34
Yeah, I'm not a big fan of it. Prefer the circle.
posted by gaspode 19 October | 09:35
How are those things cliquey?

It's very visible exclusivity in the hands of just a few. Power corrupts, etc, etc, or so the theory goes. I do like expanding the sidebar, though, it gets it out of the main stream of threads and suchlike.

Further postulations on "cliquey":

Frankly, I feel like an outsider just about everywhere I go online or off, but I'm more-or-less used to it 'cause I'm a bombastic weirdo and a strange combination of extrovert and introvert and just plain strange. Really. Not that I'm some kind of special snowflake or anything but betwixt my foibles and predelictions I'm really a rather odd duck.

That said, I've had a few people over the months and years email me privately to ask about cliquey-type behavior on this site.

I *will not* name any names or any of that publicly.

People just being social and probably *unintentionally* cliquey don't like being accused of being an exclusionary clique. Normally social people don't like making the callout. In either case, it *usually* just makes things worse.

I don't bring this up to start any drama or other such happy horseshit, but I bring it up because I know that there are lots and lots of people here that genuinely *care*.

Just be aware that the "cliquey" thing has been brought up to me before, and more than once or twice. Perhaps it's just a facet of human interaction, or perhaps it's so subtle it's moot, but perhaps it's more than that. I don't know, I wasn't there, I'd rather not get involved, etc. But I do care, so I mention it now, so that any and all can integrate it as they wish and make any extra inclusionary efforts they so desire.

This is all terribly and frustratingly vague, I know, but just FYI and be advised and all that: There's quite a few people who appreciate this site, the people on it and the company it provides, and I want to do my bit to spread the message and ethos of inclusion. Stay in Love, avoid panic buying, etc.
posted by loquacious 19 October | 09:38
Wow. I'm... hornswaggled. I don't even know what to say.
posted by taz 19 October | 09:42
Frankly, I feel like an outsider just about everywhere I go online or off, but I'm more-or-less used to it 'cause I'm a bombastic weirdo and a strange combination of extrovert and introvert and just plain strange.

Loq, my man, I'd say that puts you squarely in the demographic of this site. I can't speak for anybody else, but I've always (even when we used to beef on music stuff back in the day) considered you one of the core people who made the MetaSites what they are. If there's a clique (and I really don't think there is, I hate clubbiness and exclusivity with the passion of a thousand suns) you're a member.
posted by jonmc 19 October | 09:46
Taz: Don't be hornswaggled. You're totally innocent. Again, it may be more subtle than anything else, and it may simply just be the (really rather lurvly) innocence/naivity here, and that people aren't aware that they (the outsiders!) are being cliquey. It may just be people (more "outsiders"!) being sensitive - a noble if problematic trait. Sorry, is that complex and vauge enough? :)

But it was enough of an issue for a few folks to email me about it individually, so I figured it was important enough to provide feedback.

The problem with generalized feedback like this is that it makes people self-conscious sometimes, and the problems with specific feedback are well known.

I'm just going to leave it at that.

jonmc:

If there's a clique (and I really don't think there is, I hate clubbiness and exclusivity with the passion of a thousand suns) you're a member.

How's that go? I wouldn't want to be part of a club that would have me as a member? :P
posted by loquacious 19 October | 09:53
I liked the blue highlighting that the fund raiser had as opposed to the line.
posted by getoffmylawn 19 October | 10:07
and that people aren't aware that they (the outsiders!) are being cliquey.

I know what you mean. I see it at MeFi, all the former nerds and geeks in their little clubhouse who attck anyone who isn't like them without any awareness of the irony. I saw the same thing in college; I went to an artsy school full of Theatre majors who seemed to be getting some kind of unconscious revenge on anyone 'jocky' or 'hoody' by shutting them out, but somehow thinking they were special snowflakes immune to such behavior. I've even engaged in it myself, jokingly declaring (but declaring just the same) that some person was not 'one of us.'

But here, it's all about the diversity of voices and stories. Some of us hang out together IRL, sure, but I don't think that makes us a clique in the exclusionary sense.
posted by jonmc 19 October | 10:09
Ok, I dig the idea, and I dig the zombie-bunny-bullet style suggestion too - but I'd like to be able to choose to see a sticky page, and choose the normal random "I'm eating a bogger" page.... yaknow?
posted by dabitch 19 October | 10:10
I like the idea with a different background color, but strictly for community announcement type-stuff such as the fund drive/emcee signups (I really had to search for this round to make sure I was in the loop) and for something like the Vegas Meetup aftermath (we might have been able to avoid the multiple threads afterward if we had one catch-all).

But I guess the circle and the sidebar links probably have that covered.

Viva la Circle.
posted by krix 19 October | 10:15
I rarely have had a problem sorting through the posts for what catches my eye... I have my favorites, in terms of posters, who I automatically read; and then, of course, high comment or new, quick moving posts catch my eye, if I happen to be on at the time; and then, really, anything that grabs me. Maybe just highlight administration type announcements on the side, when necessary (I did initially miss the dodgy/seany switch over, and was clueless at first as to what was happening with the temporary glitches, so that would've been helpful to know). There don't seem to be so many posts in a day that stickies are really necessary. Like someone said, they sorta become "sticky" by virtue of the number of comments they get, and which posts grab people's interests seems rather unpredictable. Sometimes it gets goin' by virtue of the comments themselves, rather than the initial post. I don't know, I'm not worried about "cliques," per se, but I don't wanna sacrifice the free-spirit of the place either. It seems like having anyone select/highlight certain posts is the equivalent of "hiring" an editor; what gets highlighted, it seems, would inevitably fall prey to that person's particular tastes/interests, albeit unintentionally.
posted by Pips 19 October | 10:15
I'm ambivalent about the idea, but I will say that I think that more than the line needs to distinguish the stickied posts. I'm having a hard time reading the front page, in the sense that I'm having a hard time tracking what's new when I first look at it.
posted by omiewise 19 October | 10:16
I'm definitely anti-sticky posts. This smacks to me of the Uber-hipness that keeps me from using Metafilter, with it's snarking and it's contribution indexing and all the rest. I like the hodge-podge ludicrous nature of how things are now.

Again, two cents. It shouldn't be up to select people on metachat to filter out what is noteworthy or not. We're all big kids and can find our way around the store just fine.
posted by Lipstick Thespian 19 October | 10:18
We're all big kids and can find our way around the store just fine.

*gets hand stuck in gumball machine*

little help here?
posted by jonmc 19 October | 10:20
*Rifles through jonmc's pockets for beer money*
posted by loquacious 19 October | 10:27
I don't want some posts to be more equal than others. There's a more natural flow to conversation when they just scroll along. Nothing will prevent me from diving down the page to find the hot 80-comment thread I want to track - also, i like the enjoyment of checking in and finding new, refreshed content at the top of the list as the day goes by. Seeing the same-old same-old at the top - especially if it's not something you're into -- makes each visit feel already stale.

We bump things when they need it, and that works well enough. The one exception to stickiness might be the MeCha-business and admin posts; but the callout circle or occasional note in the banner has worked well for that sort of thing, too.
posted by Miko 19 October | 10:28
I don't want some posts to be more equal than others. There's a more natural flow to conversation when they just scroll along. Nothing will prevent me from diving down the page to find the hot 80-comment thread I want to track - also, i like the enjoyment of checking in and finding new, refreshed content at the top of the list as the day goes by. Seeing the same-old same-old at the top - especially if it's not something you're into -- makes each visit feel already stale.

We bump things when they need it, and that works well enough. The one exception to stickiness might be the MeCha-business and admin posts; but the callout circle or occasional note in the banner has worked well for that sort of thing, too.
posted by Miko 19 October | 10:28
This smacks to me of the Uber-hipness that keeps me from using Metafilter, with it's snarking and it's contribution indexing and all the rest.

Um, what are you talking about? MeFi doesn't track contributions any more than MeCha does, and I'm not sure what "all the rest" is, but if you don't like something here, don't like it here, not there. MeCha is actually, strangely, less democratic (and more inclined to cliqueness) in its posting reqs than MeFi precisely because everything is so flat and anyone can post as much as they want. Where MeFi imposes quotas on people to (in part) ensure that all voices have a chance to be heard, MeCha allows people to post and post and post until they drown out everything else. I'm not complaining about it, it's the way it is, but some bullshit attack on MeFi for something that's meant to address a problem created by MeCha's GUI doesn't make sense, and is rude besides.
posted by omiewise 19 October | 10:30
Yeah... just before anybody goes overboard with responses to this, let's just say it's pretty much dead, okay?

Also... wow... there were a lot of things I didn't know before today.
posted by taz 19 October | 10:38
taz, how about an auto-updated sidebar thingie that highlights current hot posts?

omiewise: Mefi does track contribution indexes, or at least some members do, and other members enjoy following along.
posted by agropyron 19 October | 10:43
Power corrupts, etc, etc, or so the theory goes.

What power?? The power to click "make this thread sticky"? Yes, we wouldn't want to abuse such a trememdous force ... ;P

What does everyone think the sticky threads are for? They're basically to make sure that the people that come and post here don't miss something that might be important to them. There are no ulterior motives to making a thread sticky, and no one would be trying to show favorites or back slap anyone by making a thread sticky. Me, I don't think I would ever even have a need to use that ultimate power (the power that corrupts) unless it was a life-altering site announcement. No one would ever consider making a "omg bunnies" or "what did you eat for breakfast" thread sticky, and yet I'm getting a distinct impression that some of you think that's what this is for. Also, the tone of some of the comments in this thread is vaguely insulting, as if some of you think taz and/or I would somehow abuse this unbelievable power and hold it over the rest of you. No one is planning on spoonfeeding you your pablum or holding your hand and showing you which threads to read. The sticky feature was supposed to be something that would be used on a rare occasion to help everyone by highlighting something that was important to take note of, like a site announcement or a status update or something along those lines. For like, an hour or a day, or something. Not until the end of time. As a convenience. For you.

As for the clique thing, yeah, I've gotten a few emails about that too. That's pretty expected, and even natural, for a community with so many members. I think MetaChat is definitely one of the friendliest and least exclusionary sites on these here internets, but that kind of thing is going to happen. I have to admit that I think it's weird that people would be emailing loquacious about it, but what do I know.
posted by iconomy 19 October | 10:47
No, some MeFi members track contributions, but it's done using a scrape that could equally well be implemented by a member here. In other words, the policy on the site is no different than that found here. Offsite behavior may be different, but that's a very different kettle of fish.

I don't have strong feelings about an index one way or the other, but to criticize MeFi (not its members) for having the same tracking that MeCha does strikes me as driven more by feeling than reality. Since I happen to like MeFi, and find it a friendly, intelligent and worthwhile place (much as I find MeCha), I take exception to mischaracterizing it based on negative emotions.
posted by omiewise 19 October | 10:47
(I did say "or at least some members do"...)
posted by agropyron 19 October | 10:57
What omiewise said. Also, just for I guess the record, I have also heard the cliquey stuff, but I ignore it, probably because I got booted from the cabal ;-) and am no longer, if I ever was, part of the clique. These things happen, and you cannot make all of the people happy all of the time, to quote some hoary cliquey cliches. Really I think Mecha ticks over amazingly well about 99% of the time and that's remarkable for any online community; we seem to have less psychodrama on a regular basis than any other site I personally am acquainted with.

So please, dear Taz, & iconomy, & seanyboy (particularly seanyboy who is so cute, not that y'all aren't cute too, but you know, not in that way) don't take this to heart and think you are doing anything wrong, because You. Are. Not.
posted by mygothlaundry 19 October | 11:08
I have to admit that I think it's weird that people would be emailing loquacious about it, but what do I know.

People talk to me about stuff for some reason. Despite my near constant mode of flippancy, I think it's because I can be very serious, I do care a lot and I'm extremely anti-gossip and anti-drama. Plus I'm an op and channel founder on #bunnies and I've been here on MeCha since day one.

*shrug* I'm not complaining at all, but I think its odd, too.
posted by loquacious 19 October | 11:11
Yeah... I'm sorry, but I have to think things are pretty fucking sucky if all these people are emailing you and other people about it, and not me. I'm formally Taken Aback.

I'm... I don't know.. I'm evidentally speechless.

Anyway. We won't be having any fucking sticky posts. At all. Fuck the sticky fucking posts, and the horse they rode in on.

posted by taz 19 October | 11:14
No one would ever consider making a "omg bunnies" or "what did you eat for breakfast" thread sticky, and yet I'm getting a distinct impression that some of you think that's what this is for.

I'm neutral. But taz did indicate that it would be used for "especially interesting participation posts", not just announcements. So, I don't think people were off base with their assumptions.
posted by danostuporstar 19 October | 11:14
So please, dear Taz, & iconomy, & seanyboy (particularly seanyboy who is so cute, not that y'all aren't cute too, but you know, not in that way) don't take this to heart and think you are doing anything wrong, because You. Are. Not.

Seconded heartily. The very rare moments of drama (or even mild tension) that I've been informed of have been either user-user interactions or vagueries requiring a simple reassuring or "there, there, it'll be ok" or the like.

On preview: Taz, I almost didn't mention it at all because I knew you'd be extremely sensitive and receptive to it, if not outright hurt. Seriously, please don't fret. It's not you or the admins. I simply wanted to point out that MeCha isn't 100% drama free, but it does damn near approach it, and I wanted to get the message out that some few were feeling a little crowded out and such. Please. Don't. Fret. It's not you or the MeCha admins, and it's entirely possible it may just be unavoidable personality/timing conflicts.

Also, at least one emailed incident was strictly a #bunnies thing, which MeCha is officially divorced from, though it's still our community.
posted by loquacious 19 October | 11:19
Can I just say, with a huge amount of affection and a warm smile:



HA HA HA HA HAHAHAHAHAHA FUCKING HA!


Thanks.


Peace and love on the playground.
posted by Divine_Wino 19 October | 11:24
I think when she said that she meant participation posts like an initial sign-up for something like an emcee or cd swap. Stuff people like to know about. Not like, what did you eat for lunch. Although of course I do love to know what you had for lunch, dano ;)

Oh, taz giveth and she taketh away!! I can't make posts sticky anymore!! The power, the powerrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr!

*sulks in corner*
posted by iconomy 19 October | 11:26
Eggplant parmesan sandwich with tomatoes.
posted by danostuporstar 19 October | 11:33
Corndog hashbrown sandwich with spicy mustard and melted cheese.

Yeah, I'm going to die young.
posted by loquacious 19 October | 11:42
What the hell?? Is there a photo of this? I'm trying to picture what it looks like and I just can't.
posted by iconomy 19 October | 11:53
:( I miss out on all the drama. I should hang out in #bunnies more.
posted by muddgirl 19 October | 13:13
I wrote a paragraph to clarify what I was saying but after looking at this thread again I have decided it's a better idea just to never again comment on or ask questions about mecha. It never goes well.
posted by arse_hat 19 October | 13:15
So can someone elaborate on how the MetaChat cliques operate? How does the site look to the people who are complaining? Like, are they sad because no one replies to their Non-Clique posts, or no one laughs at their Non-Clique jokes? Or are they upset because if a Clique Member posts something, all the other Clique Members jump in and post too?
posted by agropyron 19 October | 13:16
What the hell?? Is there a photo of this? I'm trying to picture what it looks like and I just can't.

Well, I haven't actually made one yet. I just keep ending up eating the corndogs. But as a creator of a number of bizarre breakfasty bad for you sandwiches I have been envisioning it thusly over the past few days:

1-3 frozen corn dogs.
1-2 frozen hash brown patties.
2 slices sandwich bread - a chunky sourdough, nutty wheat, maybe even a tangy rye.
1 slab of sharp/tangy cheese in a meltable age
1 srv. Spicy mustard, or perhaps a honey mustard, or a mix.

(optional: castup.)

Nuke or otherwise prepare/heat corndog(s) and hashbrowns. Toast or grill bread. Place hashbrown(s) on bread. Place cheese on 'browns. If you're a big hungry sort, destick your 2-3 corndogs and place directly on cheese/hashbrown layer. If you're not so hungry or big, destick your corndog and slice it in half, and place directly on cheese/hashbrown layer. If cheese needs assitance melting, feel free to nuke sandwich stack briefly. Garnish w/ mustard and/or catsup.

Adjust "recipe" to taste - which indeed may mean omitting all of the above steps and not making it at all. We're not talking about 5 star dining here, we're talking about food.

However, I know I'll probably like it. It's not too far out of the spectrum of the hashbrown/egg/cheese sandwiches I used to make.
posted by loquacious 19 October | 13:17
So. Definitely no sticky posts.

But the things that came out in this thread have kind of freaked me out

It's obvious that I don't get what's going on here... that what I thought was happening at metachat is really something entirely different, and that nobody actually trusts me very much (yeah, yeah, sorry about the drama, but... fuck!). And that people are all about mailing everybody else about all the nasty here? Who knew? Damn.

Anyway, I hate that kind of stuff... it bores me to tears in real life, and I've managed to pretty much totally avoid it. The last thing I would want to do is get myself entangled here in the sort of abusive/needy relationship that I've managed to slip away from or avoid in real life.

Anyway, what I now know now is that nobody wants sticky posts, and also, that I've been sort of blind and oblivious to a lot of things. I don't think I have the energy to spend on figuring those things out.

It might be time to turn over the reins, which is something I've kind of been thinking about anyway (and was always sure was in the cards)... But not as some kind of big drama. It just feels like the time is right for me, and evidently overripe for many of you.

I'm feeling really good and, actually, relieved, about the idea of making a transition from "admin" to "user". This is not a threat because this is not a marriage or contract of employment. It's okay for me to leave when it becomes "not fun any more" because I only ever got involved with this for fun; I always told myself that once it wasn't fulfilling some specific interests/needs for me... or, once people started despising me, it would be way, way past time for me to get out. Both of those conditions are coming to the fore, and I'm thinking it might be time for a change.
posted by taz 19 October | 13:21
taz, I don't think anyone despises you!

There are certainly people here I like more than others, and various things that occur because of that, but that's certainly not your fault, or really anything to do with you. Maybe I'm misinterpreting what people are talking about with the cliques, but I don't see anyone saying it's your responsibility or blaming you for it. Or even saying it's particularly pernicious.

Do what you want to do, of course. But please don't think people despise you.
posted by occhiblu 19 October | 13:30
Taz, sweetie, I love you dearly, but I think you may be over-reacting a little.

It doesn't seem all that unusual to me for one user to email another user about some personal conflict or something on the site that bugged them. And I don't think the fact that that happens in any way means that people don't trust you. On the contrary, I think there is universal respect and love for you here. (And anyone who doesn't respect or love taz can meet me at the flagpole after gym.)

For minor dramas, it seems kind of natural (to me) for someone to get the feedback of one of their peers. Going to an admin for stupid little stuff sort of smacks of tattling to teacher, which I bet is why people don't go to you with every piddly thing. And do you really want everyone to email you about ever perceived slight? My guess is -- even though this is a friendly place -- your inbox would fill up pretty damn fast.

Don't take this to heart, dearie. It's not at all about you. In a sense, users talking to other users is a good thing. No, two people bitching about a third person via email isn't the most straightforward approach to dealing with a problem. But it's kind of human. And if it diffuses the situation, then it's not a bad thing either.

On preview: Phantom scrollbar!
posted by mudpuppie 19 October | 13:34
Yeah, occhiblu is saying what I want to say. There are billions of different people in this world, and hundreds of them are here. We all see MetaChat differently and use it differently. Yes, I can see how some people might look at certain social aspects of this site and say, OMG SO CLIQUEY, but certainly they're not in the majority, and nothing about your moderation or seanbaby's or iconomy's moderation is to blame for that. It's a byproduct of the new Social Internet - some people will feel left out.

But I can understand how moderating this place is hard. We're a crazy bunch.
posted by muddgirl 19 October | 13:36
For minor dramas, it seems kind of natural (to me) for someone to get the feedback of one of their peers. Going to an admin for stupid little stuff sort of smacks of tattling to teacher, which I bet is why people don't go to you with every piddly thing.

Exactly.
posted by occhiblu 19 October | 13:38
What mudpuppie said, now everyone go have a drink and hug someone.
posted by Divine_Wino 19 October | 13:38
Ack. That's not what I wanted to be a catalyst for, taz. You weren't the focus of any of the emails I personally received. (Grr. I'm not naming names yet, but I'm naming not-names.)

You have a thankless job. Thank you. You're doing it well.

If you really feel you're weary of it, though, let your conscious be your guide.

But don't base it on this thread. We're a bunch of opinionated web dorks, mostly. User interface questions are going to draw up intense opinions here.
posted by loquacious 19 October | 13:42
Now I'm speechless, but I'll try. MetaChat is amazing, due in huge part to your steady hand, taz. I don't think anyone despises you and believe any 'cliquey' impressions that are out there are because most of us are rather fond of each other and express it, and that may seem daunting to people on the surface.

It would be selfish of me to ask you to continue doing something you don't find fun anymore. But, fuck it, you've spoiled me. Please put those thoughts away.
posted by danostuporstar 19 October | 13:42
Better said than I, danostuperstar.
posted by loquacious 19 October | 13:49
taz, I hope this is going to come out how I want it to, but -- if someone has a personal issue with someone else (or group) on the site, why should you hear about it? It seems to me that your role as an admin doesn't include advice columnist to all our little squabbles. I like to think that as adults we'd be able to sort things out between us, and not have to come running to you all the time.

Your admin style has been excellent, IMO.
posted by gaspode 19 October | 13:50
We're a crazy bunch.

Speak for yourself.

*puts on evening gown, returns to kissing tricycle*
posted by jonmc 19 October | 13:52
No, I agree with you, gaspode - and I would be horrible about dealing with them!

But... If I'm asking about the possibility of using sticky functionality to highlight interesting posts, and a lot of the answers I get back are about how cliquey and awful things are here, and how this will only make it worse (despite the fact that it's only me and ico who would be doing it), then I must believe that things are pretty well fucked.
posted by taz 19 October | 13:59
I actually really value the fact that posts here aren't segregated in terms of quality or relevance or any other sort of criteria. It keeps the mood light and avoids the competitive slant of mefi. There's no "crap post" or "this is not fpp material" vibe hear. This emphasizes that unlike some sites, metachat is as much about the people as it is about the links. We're far more internally focused than most discussion forums, and I don't think that's a bad thing.
posted by pieisexactlythree 19 October | 14:03
hear here
posted by pieisexactlythree 19 October | 14:04
hear hear!
posted by jonmc 19 October | 14:05
hrm taz, well personally I disagree that it would devolve into cliquishness, or that you or ico would let it. And it was only a few voices saying that. More people simply said that they didn't like how the sticky thing looked, and I was one of them.
posted by gaspode 19 October | 14:07
You weren't the focus of any of the emails I personally received. (Grr. I'm not naming names yet, but I'm naming not-names.)

I'll figure it's myself and (to a lesser degree) the rest of the NYC Crew, because I'm paranoid. Yeah, we're chummy with eachother, but trust me, the last thing we'd ever want to do is make somebody feel left out.
posted by jonmc 19 October | 14:10
I think it's just that someone said "cliquey" early in the thread, it's a contention that's intriguing or notable or something, so people focused on it rather than the rest of the question.
posted by occhiblu 19 October | 14:14
Yeah, I love MetaChat. My objections don't have anything to do with cliques, which I don't even really believe in, but with the way I like to read the site and the way I enjoy the changing, random way the succession of posts evolves each day.
posted by Miko 19 October | 14:19
Oh, and well said, pie.
posted by Miko 19 October | 14:20
No Jon, I figure you are wrong. What it is, is tedious and ridiculous and beneath everyone here. That's the last from me on the subject.
posted by Divine_Wino 19 October | 14:20
No Jon, I figure you are wrong.

Well, that goes without saying, man.
posted by jonmc 19 October | 14:22
I don't know if there's actual clique-y behavior so much as laziness. For me, some days I'm really busy at work/life and don't have time to engage with everyone, so I engage the people I know, from real life and IRC. But when a new person comes to IRC or this site, makes themselves known, then they'll be known, too. Same thing with meetups- I hate going to a meetup and not meeting anyone new. It's more fun with fresh blood in the mix!

That's just my thought on that issue.
posted by ThePinkSuperhero 19 October | 14:24
But... If I'm asking about the possibility of using sticky functionality to highlight interesting posts, and a lot of the answers I get back are about how cliquey and awful things are here, and how this will only make it worse (despite the fact that it's only me and ico who would be doing it), then I must believe that things are pretty well fucked.

But no one said any such thing. And after arsey first mentioned cliquishness, taz, you're the one who thought it through and realized that some people might get their feelings hurt if someone else's (inferior) post was made sticky.

Sweetheart, no one is directing anything bad at you, and no one said that this was an awful place. Things are not fucked. You are wonderful.

You are being hurt by your interpretation of what's been said, so try to let go of the way you're looking at it?
posted by mudpuppie 19 October | 14:26
(((taz)))
posted by pieisexactlythree 19 October | 14:34
Sorry, sorry, sorry!

Sorry I brought up the idea (though I still think it's a good one), and sorry that I'm responding so badly. Sorry!
posted by taz 19 October | 14:51
I'm sorry that I didn't spit into the Grand Canyon when I visited it.
posted by Divine_Wino 19 October | 15:13
What Miko said.
posted by krix 19 October | 15:23
I don't care about stickies, one way or the other. I don't care about cliques, either. But it makes me honestly sad to think you have taken any of this to heart, Taz. The simple fact is that I would not still be here if not for you, so to whatever extent that's a good thing, please take that to heart as well.
posted by It's Raining Florence Henderson 19 October | 15:34
(((taz)))

Since I'm not particularly good with words, I'll just echo what mudpuppie and dano said.

loquacious an outsider?! Ha! Perish the thought! I can't imagine Metachat, or Mefi for that matter, without your ..er.. locquacious posts.
posted by deborah 19 October | 16:00
I just wanted to be number 100 here. Sorry. Please continue.
posted by redvixen 19 October | 17:03
What IRFH said.
And what occhiblu and mudpuppie said.
And ditto to any other kind and sane comments that I've read here that I can't remember the posters (I do believe it was most of them.).

(((taz)))

Thank you for putting up with all of the crazy, ecclectic, and opinionated bunch here. Thank goodness there is lot of intellegence, kindness, and good fun to round it out.

I'd be so bored without you people.

And on preview: Damn! redvixen beat me to it!
posted by lilywing13 19 October | 17:11
Oddly, this thread is broken for me in Firefox. Just this thread, and just in Firefox.

BUT I CAN USE INTERNET EXPLORER TOO, SO YOU HAVEN'T STOPPED ME FROM COMMENTING!!!!1! I SPIT AT YOU!!
posted by mudpuppie 19 October | 17:26
I am a clicque of one.
posted by mischief 19 October | 17:29
Isn't that the new Army recruiting slogan?
posted by It's Raining Florence Henderson 19 October | 17:34
May I just say that I love this place? It's the only site I have time for in my day, besides checking e-mail. I enjoy all the posts, I love how it's moderated here, I don't think we need to change a thing.

Now, let's all have a drink together, with hugs all around, okay?
posted by redvixen 19 October | 17:43
Why Posts should be sticky...

Because sometimes things (like photo friday or vegas) get mentioned a number of times and it'd be quite nice to keep them in focus. Many posts get bumped, and stickiness is an extension of or an answer to that.

Because sometimes we need to tell you stuff & it's good that it stays at the top of the page.

As admins we would have to be careful as to what we "choose" to be sticky. There's every possibility that on occasion we'd get it wrong. But you you have to trust us enough to make and learn from any stick related mistakes.

Also, if we're a clique, then we're a clique in the same way the chess club is a clique. You may not understand the rules, but we want you & everyone you know to join. We'll even try to explain the rules. If you don't like it, it's just that as hard as we try, you may just be one of those people who does not like chess.

*chants "one of us, one of us"*
posted by seanyboy 19 October | 17:46
Hey taz, I couldn't think of what to say about this whole thing, but basically, I think gaspode, occiblu, and pup got it right:

There are certainly people here I like more than others, and various things that occur because of that, but that's certainly not your fault, or really anything to do with you.

...if someone has a personal issue with someone else (or group) on the site, why should you hear about it? It seems to me that your role as an admin doesn't include advice columnist to all our little squabbles.

Sweetheart, no one is directing anything bad at you, and no one said that this was an awful place. Things are not fucked. You are wonderful.

I am neutral about the sticky idea. And do not worry, you are loved and you are doing a great job.
posted by Specklet 19 October | 18:22
The simple fact is that I would not still be here if not for you...
Well said!
posted by getoffmylawn 19 October | 18:40
I think stickies for admin announcements and such can make sense (I didn't see the design, so I can't comment on that). I think the early example of "What weird shit's in your house" as a thread to be sticky-ed kinda pushed this thread in a weird direction.
posted by occhiblu 19 October | 18:51
Am I reading the same post here? I saw them this morning, yet I still fail to see the What The Big Deal Is. Ah well.

For what it's worth, I didn't really care about the stickies, but I thought it was a good idea (that perhaps needed some tweaking). I could go on about why, but at this point it seems a ridiculous waste of time. Instead, I'll just give a farewell salute.

O, Stickies! We barely knew thee! May dear Taz forget this thread ever happened!

posted by wimpdork 19 October | 19:31
Goodness. This is what I get for working someplace that blocks metachat. I miss the all fuss and get to show up at the end to hug taz and offer tea and cookies to everyone. So... snickerdoodle?
posted by scody 19 October | 21:25
(((taz)))

If stickies are out, can we have a "bag of rocks", or "anvils" (preferably made by ACME), or something? You know, to make a thread sink to the bottom of the site for good. I'd like to begin by nominating this one.

(I missed the bit where Rod Sterling started the naration, but this is a serious WTF moment. And what Miko, Dano, IRFH and others said. I can't believe the un-named unknowns loq has received emails from are reading the same site).
posted by GeckoDundee 19 October | 22:35
Taz, you aren't impartial enough as admin, here. You play favorites. You reinforce cliquey-ness. You do not resolve disputes well, and are inclined to take sides. I disagree with the idea that you have moderated with 'a steady hand.'
posted by mcgraw 20 October | 09:21
Argh. And I was so happy to see you too, mcgraw. I was thinking about you yesterday, weirdly enough, and came here this morning to get your email address to get in touch. But you have a fake email address here, which is going to get you banned if you don't change it. Unless it really is yahoo at yahoo? I just assumed it was fake.

I know that you left here with some ill will and bad feelings toward some of us and taz in particular, but I hope you didn't come back just for this.
posted by iconomy 20 October | 09:58
wtf mcgraw?
posted by omiewise 20 October | 10:03
See, if I were an admin, I'd probably just delete mcgraw's comment. So taz is demonstrably more impartial than I.
posted by occhiblu 20 October | 11:30
She probably hasn't seen it yet.
posted by iconomy 20 October | 11:58
As much as I disagree with it, I'd hate to think mcgraw's comment would be deleted, or that you could get banned for a fake email address.
posted by danostuporstar 20 October | 12:51
Heavy hand, mcgraw?

Yeah, I'm talkin to YOU!

You think you overstated some of your concerns just a wee bit?

Well you did, jerkoff!

I hope you'll think twice before you lay into someone like that next time.

Try being considerate, mcgraw. You ignoramus.
posted by dfowler 20 October | 12:52
Ok, I retract my last statement. The sock puppet's comment, at least, should go.
posted by danostuporstar 20 October | 13:03
Things are getting very low here, I see. What's happened kids? Meltdown in bunnyland? Was all the frivolity and easygoing-ness a facade?

mcgraw, you will find very few -if at all any- agreeing with you on this one. If you do not like the site so much, get out. You cannot expect the world to go by your opinions and standards. Deal with it. Really.

taz, in my humble opinion, you are overeacting a bit. Please give it some time before you make (and announce) decisions.
posted by carmina 20 October | 13:04
I wasn't seriously suggesting deleting comments. It just seemed that the simple existence of such a mean-spirited comment on the site pretty much undermined the content of the comment in question, which made the whole thing seem so stupidly ridiculous that shutting it down now rather than letting it get big would have been my preferred route.
posted by occhiblu 20 October | 13:18
(for anyone not in the clique, I'm pretty sure dfowler and mcgraw inhabit the same corporeal body)

(i hope 'clique' doesn't become the new 'cabal')
posted by muddgirl 20 October | 13:22
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