Someone in the thread made a comment that the guys who denied it was happening had probably never lived in cities. It popped into my head the other day that the whole thing could be seen as the sidewalk equivalent of competitive or aggressive driving and road rage. I wonder if any of the people denying it happens would change their minds if the context changed to cars?

It's really only a power "contest" if both parties are participating. I for one, never think about it. Some people are just jerks and don't get out of the way. I don't feel like they're ever making me back down. What about groups of people who take up the whole sidewalk? Are they all trying to make me feel like a little bitch? 'Cuz I notice it's mostly women who do that, in which case, that's REALLY emasculating.

occhiblu wrote:

I've been in a roomful of men with one other woman who made a passive-aggressive comment that sounded, to all the men in the room, innocuous or even complimentary, when she and I knew full well that she was attempting to knock me down a peg. It's the female bullying / "Queen Bee" phenomenon; women aren't allowed to push each other around, so we snipe at each other in coded, socially condoned ways. (And, interestingly, that would also be the stereotypical way for gay men to one-up each other.)

Can you tell us more about this, occhiblu? I kind of know what you mean from experiences my wife has told me about, but I'd like to hear some specific examples if you have some that come to mind.

Cars wouldn't change my mind, however, I'd like to know how many of these men who feel like it IS a power struggle are under 6 foot.

Well, if I bump somebody accidentally, I usually say 'excuse me,' but I don't see that as a male pissing contest thing, merely politeness in a city where personal space is at a premium.

Otherwise, I try to avoid making things into a big deal unnecessarily.

dno: I never really cared or thought about it either, until I moved to a mixed-class area. Then it became pretty obvious that some guys were doing it as a show of dominance. That's when it started pissing me off.

I thought it was a fascinating thread, and something that I had never really thought about. Then, in Boston last weekend, mr. g and I were walking behind a youngish (25ish) dude who deliberately put his shoulder into 3 men who passed him (all 3 men were of different ages). I was dying to follow him for a while, but we had to turn a corner and mr. g only tolerates my shit so far :)

A few years ago I was walking down Queen St. W. here in Toronto and I was in an extremely foul mood and there were people everywhere bumping into me and getting in my way... ordinarily just life in the big city but I was getting angrier and angrier so finally I said, Fuck It-- I looked straight ahead and started walking as fast as I could, no doubt trailing anger-steam from my forehead. It was just past five, the sidewalks were packed with people going home and every single one of them got out of my way.

And thank God for that. If anyone had tried to 'step to me', as they say, I'd probably be in jail right now.

That was the one time I tried that trick. I didn't feel awesome about it and it wasn't an ego thing (I do know the types of jerks you're talking about, though) but it did make me think, 'Damn! I guess I can be pretty intimidating when I'm angry.'

I haven't gotten that angry in a long, long time.

Well then it becomes more of a class issue than a male issue. I assume the "uppers" make the "lowers" get out of their way. I'd be surprised if there weren't some female equivalent (who breaks eye contact first, etc.). I still think some people are just jerks.

I assume the "uppers" make the "lowers" get out of their way.

It depends on the setting. In bars and whatnot, I've seen guys in suits carefully make way for guys in leather jackets and jeans. I've even had it happen to me a few times, and I'm 160lbs. soaking wet holding a brick. But in businessy areas, I've seen yuppie types walk down the sidewalk like they own the place, too.

jonmc - exactly, some people are just jerks, I fail to see the gender-specific-ness of this argument.

jonmc - exactly, some people are just jerks,

or just quick to make assumptions that any vaguely countercultural appearance means 'ready to fight over slightest thing.'

dno, that's funny. I was about to respond to your first comment with: Yeah, but you're 6'3", bearded enough to look imposing, and also polite to a fault -- you look as if no one should mess with you, and you're so likely to gracefully avoid a brewing conflict rather than get into a pissing match, so...

On the other hand, making such exceptions totally weakens my original argument. :-)

agro, I'm currently reading "Odd Girl Out" (based, I think, on a MeFi recommendation) and it so totally gets at the entire issue of how women are mean to each other than I can't recommend it enough.

My summary: Girls are taught that being "nice" is vitally important, that nurturing and maintaining relationships is one of their highest goals. Girls, however, just like boys, occasionally get mad or frustrated. They've been told that they're not allowed to damage their relationships, and that they're not allowed to ever be mad because "that's not nice." So they show aggression in really indirect manners that seem, to the untrained (parental, teacher, boy) eye not to be aggressive at all. Spreading rumors, talking behind friends' backs, saying nasty things followed by "Just kidding!", or simply not speaking to a friend for weeks until the anger dissipates.

There's no show of open aggression, because that wouldn't be nice. It's also most likely to happen among friends; girls don't tend to bully random strangers as much as close friends. Partly because they've been taught that being mad is SO AWFUL that it will immediately end a friendship -- who wants to be friends with an angry girl??? -- and so they suppress the anger and suppress the anger and suppress the anger until it erupts into totally disporportionate retaliatory measures.

What I find interesting is that last bit, because it so describes a lot of the way that women stereotypically interact (both which each other and with men). There's still a feeling that women shouldn't get angry (look how often "angry" gets tossed in the face of feminist complaints as if it were the ultimate insult), and so women suppress that until it has to leak out in weird, passive-aggressive ways.

On top of that, the near-ubiquity of "girl bullying," the fear that one day your best friend will just stop talking to you without telling you what you did to make her angry, has made a lot of adult women wary about getting too intimate with other women. There's a fear that she'll turn on you, that she's talking behind your back, that you can't trust her. There's in some case an impulse to show her that either you don't like her enough that she can hurt you, or that you're so superior to her that it doesn't matter. And so some of the same behaviors can come out in adult groups.

Not to say that they always do. But I'm certainly only now (at 30 y.o.) starting to trust women again after being really awfully bullied in sixth grade. (Truthfully, partly due to how wonderful the MeCha women are; meet-ups have been revelatory.) And it's been weird to be a feminist who's a little wary of women. But I think so much of the behavior is forced on us by a society that doesn't allow us to express anger or jealousy in productive ways, so we're stuck being catty until we learn how to deal with it on our own.

On preview: Man, this is long. Sorry. Like I said, I'm in the midst of the book, which is fascinating, so I'm thinking about this a lot.

I'd be surprised if there weren't some female equivalent (who breaks eye contact first, etc.).

But I really don't think there is. At least not one that I've experienced.

I would rather be happy than right. Which means both driving and walking, I do it *defensively*.

During my 15 days in NYC, I got more and more burnt out by the fact that there are people fricking EVERYWHERE. I would think that one would get used to it after awhile but it took at toll on my nervous system.

If some guy wants to take his half out of the middle of the sidewalk, I would assume that he has issues with *real* personal power, and is playing them out, either consciously or unconsciously, by hogging the sidewalk. I'd rather not engage such a person, or if I do, just whip out my pistol and shoot them in the nuts and quietly go about my day.

On preview. . occhi. . .*relational aggression* in girls is something my daughter has had to deal with, extensively. .. I know way too much about it.

Well then it becomes more of a class issue than a male issue. I assume the "uppers" make the "lowers" get out of their way.

Uh, no, more like thugs staring down people who look like they don't know how to fight. And yes, it's a guy thing, because it doesn't seem to happen too often with women.

occhiblu: fascinating! I'll have to check out that book.

Oh, you asked for examples. Off the top of my head:

I was cooking dinner one evening and she wandered into the kitchen. "Did you wear THAT to work?" she asked. "Yes," I replied." "Oh, I could NEVER wear that," she said (it was a scoop-neck top and an Asian-print skirt). Trying to be nice, I said, "Sure you could! It'd probably be cute on you!" She paused. "Maybe," she said, "but I really think people would think I was a slut."

This was all said with a big "Gosh darn it, those silly people!" smile on her face.

(I actually can't remember what she said in teh incident I mentioned earlier; I just remember that feeling of utter shock at what she had said, and that feeling of utter loneliness in being in a room full of people who had heard it but did not understand that she had just declared open warfare. Partly because while I have a long memory for grudges I have no memory for details, and partly because what she said did, in fact, seem so totally innocuous that the words themselves were not that memorable.)

Wow, what a bitch!

Oh, and after the slut comment, she wandered absent-mindedly out of the kitchen. It wasn't an invitation to continue speaking or fighting, just a random bomb launched my way, in front of a close friend (who was cooking with me).

She paused. "Maybe," she said, "but I really think people would think I was a slut."

The correct response would've been, "Wherever would they get that idea?"

(I do agree that the male openly aggressive way might be better, since at least it's honest and once the pissing contest is done (and it's not always physical, it can be intellectual or 'I've done something/been somewhere/fucked somebody you haven't' verbal) it's done, and people can get on with interacting or not interacting.)

I don't know if my behavior opts out of this or takes it to a new level. I give try to give off the "I don't have time to participate in your petty power struggles" vibe. I'd say I get out of the way about half the time people get out of mine.

But then, I'm also tall and move quickly.

And it's been weird to be a feminist who's a little wary of women.

God, occhiblu, I can't tell you how awesome it is to hear someone else say that. I've long felt like an outcast in the World of Women.

I've never really been aware of the male sidewalk skirmishes. I'll have to ask the mister about it. I think he may be immune due to extreme size.

I hadn't really thought that much about it, jrossi, till reading something at Heather Corinna's site about how it was total bullshit that women who claim to support women so often have trouble with female friendships. She was blaming societal power structures that teach us all to keep from truly trusting women, not claiming that we should all go out and get a BFF, but yeah, it made me think about a lot of this stuff.

(Hee. I feel like y'all are now getting the brunt of "occhiblu is back in school, and therefore full of theories on which she will expound at length, because her brain is suddenly turned back on." I apologize if I get annoying.)

"Maybe," she said, "but I really think people would think I was a slut."

What a bitch! I don't know if that's a "women" thing so much as a "bitch" thing.

I was once joking with some girls at my old college that when my family asked why I wasn't married, I'd say I was having too much fun sleeping around. And one girl said, oh hahah, but I could never say that to my family, because MY family wouldn't think it was true.

Think on that one.

Niiiiiiiiice.

What a bitch! I don't know if that's a "women" thing so much as a "bitch" thing.

True enough. But I was also working with her fiance, which bugged her, and there were plenty of general jealousy issues to mean that she wasn't just being bitchy for the hell of it, so I tend to categorize it under relational aggression.

I have an example- it's long and I don't come out so good in it but I swear I didn't start it. Thanksgiving with dad and wife #3. He asked me to take a jello dish but couldn't stop there. He had to go and tell #3 that wife #2's mom used to make it and it was so good.

So... Wednesday night and my dad shows up with two big things of collards- they didn't have room in their refrigerator for them and could I put them in mine? We put them on ice in coolers on the back porch, otherwise our house would smell like farts for days.

We show up with something a lot like this- not exactly a classified secret. At some point before we sat down she sniped at me kind of out of context that "jello won't set with pineapple in it". I guess she was trying to figure out how to make it for him but wouldn't simply ask "hey, how do you make that stuff?"

I'd just read this on metafilter and mentioned it at the table like an idiot, forgetting that some people consider the holiday sacred (or did I?) so that went over well.

Okay I don't like telling this part- before lunch my brother and his girlfriend had driven up, gotten out, argued, got back in the car and left. Someone said they wished they'd stayed to eat. I said the problem was he broke up with one and took whomever walked by next- just pointed and said 'you'll do'.

The men at the table didn't know a thing had happened all day.

oops, i didn't mean to leave that big space- i edited a bunch- sorry.

it's in my personal top-ten of Most Interesting MeFi Thread, excellent, really, and mad props to occhiblu


Yeah, but you're 6'3"

I agree it's a key factor. I'm about 6'4" and to keep the road rage metaphor I guess I'd be a pretty big SUV in traffic. I try to walk -- and drive -- unobtrusively, but maybe that's just me. but most passerbys are shorter than I am anyway so what do I know

And it's been weird to be a feminist who's a little wary of women.

I haven't got much time to add my comments, but as usual, I agree with most of what Occhiblu is saying, and have certainly experienced the under-the-radar, female-on-female attack many times in life. And as an educator, I have a well-developed rant about how schools accommodate and even facilitate girl/girl bullying while boy/boy bullying is condemned, resulting in more finely honed manipulative skills on the part of many women.

And yeah, it's hard to be feminist when you feel you can't fully trust all the members of your own sex. But it seems like this is classic division you find in any population where there's been oppression. Individuals respond differently based on their personalities, and on their particular life experiences. Some accommodate the oppression by adopting the expected behaviors and exploiting them for personal survival and success. Some rebel openly. And some try to create a new paradigm. I think part of being a feminist is understanding that there are different ways in which women have coped with patriarchy through history, and that some of them are quite detrimental to women as a whole. So we do need to identify those behaviors and how they arise in order to call them as we see them, directly, when they happen. Which is why books like "Odd Girl Out" are welcome studies of female behavior. 'Girls will be girls' - yeah, but only until we as adults illustrate to them what they're doing, suggest why, and demonstrate other means of interacting.

As to sidewalks? I do see power games going on on sidewalks; but sometimes I'm a participant, I have to admit. On a crowded city street, if someone is approaching me and walking two or three abreast, and in my path, and I'm on the right and continuing forward, by custom and courtesy they should yield a lane to people passing on the other side. If they don't yield space, I'll catch their eye and stride forward and refuse to give ground. I think of this as just being assertive -- I'm not going to scurry out of someone's way just because they're too rude to step aside and share the space. What this means is that occasionally I do end up brushing shoulders with someone. I'm not looking for a confrontation at all, I'm just not willing to accommodate people who assume they will be accorded superior status for no reason at all.

Does this mean I'm a man?

Hummm... Maybe many people seriously thought that there's no miniature power contest going on between two men passing on the sidewalk because there isn't one? Certainly there's a minority (perhaps sizable, perhaps not) of psychopathic or adolescent men and women (gasp!) who feel this way, but we don't judge what is and what isn't a contest by the measure of psychopaths. If we did, everything would be a contest. Gender bias is gender bias is gender bias. Anecdotal evidence is anecdotal evidence is anecdotal evidence.

That being said, I'll probably walk around for the rest of the week with my chest all puffed out, because F them and their games, man! After that, I'll go back to my now regular routine of throwing a subtle, "hey, you're awesome!" smile to everybody I pass. That did almost get me in trouble with a clearly insane person (talking to self, picking up and dropping random objects) once, when he caught a wiff of my smile from all the way across the friggin' street.

Certainly there's a judgement going on in certain settings (such as city streets or seedy neighborhoods) as to whether or not this person or group sets off any red troublemaker flags and posturing or avoidance ensues depending on whichever will most likely avoid trouble, but that's a survival tool for women as much as it is for men. It's also not really a contest since there are many kinds of troublemakers, from thugs who want a fight to non-violent pickpockets to drug dealers who just want to be left alone. Two unfamiliar human beings meeting on the street will always have two different goals. If it's a game, it's a non-zero-sum game. My day-so-day life is more important than phantom posturing, so I win! Their ability to get people to take half a second to move two feet out of their way is more important to them, so they win!

I do posture more in vehicle to bicycle interactions, but I'm clearly considered by US society to be the lower class participant in a literal life-or-death interaction where my life is considered unimportant. Sidewalk posturing in certain cultures might exist more predominantly than in others because of class and because the stakes are higher because there's a higher likelyhood of crossing a troublemaker. If you don't notice women posturing, then you're depending on your limited cultural context just as much as someone who's never lived in a city.

I think the motivation for asking the question was that I have no handle on the physical behaviors that are occurring between men; I'll just suddenly see my companion in a bad mood or some guy getting all chest-puffy at some perceived slight. And I've never been successful at noticing what caused that, because it's not behavior I'm expecting or looking for.

It's the lead-up to the confrontation that interests me most, not the confrontation itself.

And as I've said again and again, of course it happens with women. But it happens in different ways, and the causes and the stakes seem to be much different.

That is, "of course [power plays] happen with women."

And I would also say that "Odd Girl Out" is starting to sway me toward thinking that women are more likely to do this sort of thing to friends, while guys may be more inclined to do it to strangers, and maybe that's a distinction that plays into this.

Oh, here's a nice example of the female thing, done to me:

A few months before our wedding, I was in New York staying with mr. g. His roommate was at the time engaged to a woman who epitomised everything I hate about... actually, just everything I hate. e.g. refused to get engaged unless the ring was >25K in value as an example. She's trying to do the girly wedding thing with me, and I'm trying to be polite, and then she turns to me, puts her hand on my knee and says very sweetly: "I have an amazing trainer, I bet he could get 25 pounds off you by your wedding".

Hummm... Maybe many people seriously thought that there's no miniature power contest going on between two men passing on the sidewalk because there isn't one?

I guess I'm amazed again.

Certainly there's a minority (perhaps sizable, perhaps not) of psychopathic or adolescent men and women (gasp!) who feel this way

I guess I'm a psychopath. Lotta psychopaths over at AskMe, too.

Interesting stuff. I always attributed my problems with women to growing up with all sisters and having our own close, honest dynamic that didn't translate well. In my house, if someone asked if their ass looked big in these pants, it was because they wanted an answer. It took me some time to realize that chicks in the real world didn't want that level of honesty.

And my MIL is the queen of the under-the-radar insult. Anything that starts with "Well, it would have been nice if..." or ends with "...nevermind, I shouldn't say anything" is guaranteed to be particularly vicious.

on preview: Wow, gaspode.

e.g. refused to get engaged unless the ring was >25K in value as an example.

who was she expecting to marry, Donald Trump?

and jrossi, if someone asks, do these pants make my ass look big, the correct answer is 'no, your ass makes your ass look big.'

Oh he got her it, jon. I know a number of women who have engagement rings of around that value or greater ("he has his porsche, I have my diamonds").

But beyond that she was just your typical Mean Girl. They have since broken up, after an intervention and deprogramming from his high school friends.

Lotta psychopaths over at AskMe, too.

Does this surprise you?

i can't think of any specific examples but i used to make it a habit to call people out for their sneaky mean comments. I would just ask them if they were mean or stupid and deal with the rest of the people thinking I was an over aggressive bitch, but I believe in calling some folks on their bad behavior.

i also might be an over aggressive bitch but not on purpose! i swear! and part of the reason i like it here is that there are so many very smart and supportive women, which in real life is hard to find in groups.

so i guess also odd girl out is highly recommended?

so i guess also odd girl out is highly recommended?

I'm finding it a little repetitive -- I feel like she came up with an outline for the book, then did the research and found that all her pre-conceived categories of who was bullied and who was doing the bullying were so overlapping as to be inseparable, but she still had to fill out all the chapters -- but I also find each story and concept totally fascinating, so I'm willing to forgive her.

It does (so far at least) focus almost exclusively on girls, not adults, but like I said, I think it's interesting to see how the behaviors carry over and affect us into adulthood.

Yes, Mrs. Pants, I'm exactly with you there. I refuse, utterly, to indulge people like that in their games. I often explain to them in very simplistic terms, as if they were very, very stupid, why what they just said was an insult. But I don't have to go through this very often... I just cut them right out. I believe in a simple life.

I guess I'm amazed again.

I guess I'm a psychopath. Lotta psychopaths over at AskMe, too.

Defensive much? Assume for a second that the Intarnets (and the sidewalks for that matter) are a non-zero-sum game. There can be more than one winner. Not every comment is meant to be a personal attack on you. Not every male passing you on the sidewalk is some kind of rival. If you want to lump yourself with antisocial behavior, go right ahead.

Are you amazed because the idea of people not playing The Game bothers you?

So, what happens when two Game Deniers meet on the street? Does or doesn't The Game occur? Now imagine that the World is a bigass place with hundreds of thousands of local cultures. Are masculine alpha-ape instincts so unyielding that all of these cultures experience The Game? A world without the possibility of social change. That's a depressing world that I don't want to live in.

Occhi, I recommended Odd Girl Out, in the later AskMe thread asking about female aggression to clarify that same comment you made that struck agropyron. I'd link to it, but MeFi is acting wonky, probably because we're all compulsively rereading that awesome Woz comment (!!!!).

I too am a feminist with generalized woman wariness that started from intense girlhood bullying (I was both nerdy and poor, an absolutely fatal combination). It's something I've never written about nor discussed much. Mostly, because a lot of women operate in a kind of convenient denial about it. That early bullying made me intensely conscious of those dynamics, whether aimed at me or at another woman, so I know I'm hyperaware of it, and more prone to see it where it may not be. But I'm troubled to see other women deny it -- or claim it's the mere province of bitches.

I think the most painful experience I had with this was in women's studies, where I took a seminar with a female prof who treated me and my work with such peculiar passive aggressive malice that I went to another department prof, my mentor, about it. She slammed her hand on the table in rage, telling me that it was this prof's habit to undermine the work of other women she felt threatened by. Because I was very politically active, worked hard, wrote well -- was basically very visible -- I was her stereotypical target. My mentor encouraged me to go to the department head with it, so I did, but it didn't work. Before this happened, I was going to get a minor in women's studies, and it was a mistake that I didn't. But I was very young and naive, and had adopted this unrealistic optimism that women's studies would be a shangri la where women would be unfailingly supportive and good to each other. I felt that if a clear, ongoing abuse of power -- a more adult, twisted form of the same female bullying I'd experienced when young -- could go unchecked there, of all places, then it was a pretty poor bet that I'd find the keys to social justice there.

I see what happened to me now as a classic story: an overly optimistic and naive person finds The Answer, discovers it is not perfect, is disillusioned, and retreats from the whole experience, unable to distinguish babies from bathwater. Now that I'm older I know there are no Answers, only people, trying in their imperfect way to do what they think is right. I'm more cautious, but still optimistic about women's ability to see our own flaws and find better ways of dealing with them. It's helped that I've had some good, honest women friends who've done a lot of thinking about these things.

But my point, after all this exhausting typing, is that it can't happen without honesty. You can strive to find better ways of being, but you can't create yourself out of your own forehead -- if you had a common American girlhood, you have to deal with the fact that these stealthy forms of bullying were part of your education. Whether you performed them or were victimized by them (or some combination of both, as is common), or just silently observed them, they are part of your language. Denying that they exist -- whether around you or in you -- is to consign them to a dark, fertile place the perfect temperature for them to continue to flourish.

Oh, I forgot about Women's Studies. Yikes. I took one class and then never went back to the department. I didn't have any problems with the professors, just the students, who I felt glared at me because I was wearing eyeliner and was therefore obviously a tool of the patriarchy sent to oppress them. I have never felt more out of place and marginalized in a classroom in my life.

Sigh. I really like what Miko said about trying to remember that it's not women per se who are acting this way, but women perverted by the unrealistic expectations of a screwed-up society. But it's so frustrating that this society means that almost every choice for women is in some way bad, or at least so loaded down with baggage as to be questionable.

I too am a feminist with generalized woman wariness that started from intense girlhood bullying (I was both nerdy and poor, an absolutely fatal combination). It's something I've never written about nor discussed much. Mostly, because a lot of women operate in a kind of convenient denial about it. That early bullying made me intensely conscious of those dynamics, whether aimed at me or at another woman, so I know I'm hyperaware of it, and more prone to see it where it may not be. But I'm troubled to see other women deny it -- or claim it's the mere province of bitches.

I feel I was pretty much exactly the same as melissa may - as a girl I reacted with anger and passive-agressiveness. In college, I pretty much shunned most of the girls in my predominantly-male school - I had two close female friends, one of whom was queen of these sort of underhanded insults. From her, I learned that the source of these little digs stemmed mostly from a feeling of inadequacy - she would "compliment" my "sensible outfit" when she was feeling like a slut, etc. It was like she would insult me before I could insult her. I never really know how to respond, so eventually I just started shutting her out, which made her more insecure, and so on.

My (mostly) male friends are always saying, "She's such a great girl, so nice!" because I guess guys aren't really raised to translate this sort of innuendo.

It always amazes me that het guys aren't more savvy about het women. I have a couple guy friends who in all other human-behavior arendas seem very astute, but who consistently mistake complete and blatant (to me) bitchiness as niceness, and generally ascribing completely wrong motivations for all sorts of behavior. And as the age differences increase (guy= older, woman= younger) it gets worse. You'd think they'd clue in, but no. Bizarre.

This is not true for all, or even most of, my guy friends, but there are 2 or 3 that regularly stun me by their obtuseness (obtusity?). I keep thinking- are we even talking about the same person?

It always amazes me that het guys aren't more savvy about het women.

This is because (by and large, and I blame your mothers for this) you are too goddamned subtle, especially when it comes to sex.

I really appreciate the tangent here about female bullying. I'd just like to humbly point out that when we were talking about male (sidewalk) bullying, it's held up as a generalization that all guys do this in all interactions. However, we all understand that girls may at times be the bully and other times the victim, but we're still talking about individual experiences and individual bullies. My main point (somewhat clouded) throughout this thread is that it is unfair to both genders to hold up male experience in terms of generalization and female experience as individual conflicts. We're using two different (both limited!) languages to describe essentially the same thing, except one is male/body language and one is female/verbal language.

My SO has been having Queen Bee problems at work and I guess the thing that irks me and makes me be that paternal problem solving guy instead of that active listener guy is the idea that the bully's opinion even matters. It seems to me that the dig should have no power unless you're trying to impress the bully and/or their superficial followers?

Gah. I have a lot to say about this, methinks. This article (pdf) sums some of it up for kids, but I think the essence works for adults too. I've been distracted by the Woz thread. EEeEeeeeeeEEeee!

May I just chime in that this is a fascinating post? I agree with everything Occiblu and Miko said. I had a miserable grade school experience as I was an easy target for the other girls. Damn pecking order. Even as a teen, I was closer to guys than girls-at least guys were straight forward.
I can give you an example of the female undercutting behavior: One of my regular customers at the store I worked in was an older, kvetchy lady. Nothing was ever good enough in her life, etc. We'd talk because her daughter also worked there. One time, I was in the store after lunch with a friend, dressed up. Mary sees me, and across the back of the store, calls "Oh, Annie, I had no idea you were so attractive!" Translation for the male readers-"You always look so dowdy." Thanks, Mary.

It seems to me that the dig should have no power unless you're trying to impress the bully and/or their superficial followers?

Ah-ha! Interesting that you see it that way. And kind of telling about why, from the male perspective, these things are almost beneath notice.

Moves like this do have power, because the classic female view of what power is and how to achieve it is different from what men have traditionally been taught. Women (in the most general way) learn that all your power derives from your relationships - your social skills and your connections. Therefore, power or status expresses itself within personal relationships, not necessarily with clearer markers like physical size or brawn, money, or position in a hierarchy. It's about who accepts you, who dismisses you, who you accept, or who you can dismiss.

So while your SO's experience might look like a shrug-it-off nasty comment to many guys, to women it's very clear what the comment is - a play for superior status.

I like what taz and others have said about calling that game for what it is, taking the offender on directly. Next time I run across it, I plan to do the same. Thanks.

While I don't really accept that interconnectedness and social power are the only valuable measure of personal worth, I did get raised a girlie and it still does sting. Especially when you mostly hang out with people who don't buy into it and thus aren't usually expecting it. There are populations of women where this sort of thing is daily experience and that's the way life is. I'm thankful that I've been able to run in friendlier and more thoughtful circles of both men and women; but it's come slowly. Like many other women in this thread, for some years in high school and college I actively avoided forming friendships with women, excepting only a special like-minded few. I enjoyed hanging out with guys and had lots of male friends precisely because I found their behavior more direct and easier to understand.

I feel like I'm defending myself too much, but to Skwirl: I certainly don't assume that all men do this all the time. The question was a good-faith attempt to find out who and when and why (hence the question as to whether it was contextual).

Basically, I was clueless enough that I had to ask the broad question, because I didn't know the narrower categories.

Still don't, truthfully, though I'm getting more of a clue.

I also think this is a fascinating conversation, and I'll add a bit of advice for Miko (or anyone else interested in one way of extracting oneself from the insult game).

So, the trick is to call the person on their bullshit by pointing out the insult, but this is very important: when responding, do not manifest the usual "nice" body language/signals of laughing or smiling nervously, etc. Look them straight in the eye, without smiling and without fidgeting at all, and say what you have to say: "so, you're telling me I'm a fat pig/dress like a slut/ugly/whatever." And then they say, "No, no! I didn't mean that at all!" and you break it down for them. (Also fight the impulse to fill in the gaps in the conversation now; the long silence is your friend.) This will be so terrifying that it's extremely unlikely they will ever, ever repeat the performance with you... and with a little luck, they may think twice about doing it to someone else.

Basically, all you're doing here is stripping away the fake social face that would normally prevent you from responding in any effective way, and the thing they are entirely counting on when commencing to snipe. It's very liberating! Pretty soon you'll be loathe to ever do the fake-social-face thing in any situation where people are being assholes.

And what's really weird is that 90% of the time, once you've done that to someone, they end up as a fawning admirer; I have no idea why. People can be strange and twisted things.

My policy is to spend every bit of my subtlety and social skill putting people who are shy or awkward at ease, all my focus into listening and really relating to nice, interesting people, and all my patience into accepting whatever little idiosyncrasies they may present... and to the aggressive, shallow, bullying, inflated types I give my naked face, which apparently has the power of medusa.

*fawningly admires taz*

The problem with the direct call-out, though, is that the nastiest queen bees build enough plausible deniability into their statements that calling them out can give them the opportunity to make you look like a paranoid bitch. ("What? I was saying you look thinner! That's a compliment! Geez!") Or, in the case of my MIL, wilting under the attack to make you look like a heartless aggressor. ("Nothing I say is ever right! I don't even know how to talk to you!")

*rampages around, looking for victims*

True, jrossi4r... In those situations where you cannot confront the person one-on-one, it's sticky. You don't want to create "a scene" or spoil everyone's mood, so sometimes you have to let it go, though you don't have to smile and play along. I think it would be funny to say something like, "thanks! You don't look as bad as you used to either!" but then that's getting sucked into the game.

And what's really weird is that 90% of the time, once you've done that to someone, they end up as a fawning admirer; I have no idea why.

I think a lot of people who go around transgressing boundaries (= being nasty) are actually terrified by the world they think they live in. It's a world where might makes right, and they're trying to harm other people so they can't be harmed. But they know some day they're going to falter, and in their world that's the day that they'll be eaten alive.

When you enforce a boundary with them it's like a revelation. They don't understand it but they feel in their gut that they want to live in a nice world.

Not that this means they understand what boundaries are. They just intuitively comprehend that it's better if we operate with them. So if you wish you can try to re-educate them. That having been said a lot of these kinds of people are only willing to go so far down this path.

I like your explanation, halonine, but part of me wonders if it's just that they've found a new Queen Bee to follow. It's not a revelation that their world view is skewed so much as a reordering of their existing world view, now with taz on top because she's shown herself to be unintimidated. So rather than risk another unsuccessful attack, they set themselves as orbiting planets.

(But again, I'm in the middle of a book on teenagers. I don't have a good grasp of quite how this works with adults.)

yeah... I think it more what you said, occhi - a lot more like pack animals who have to establish who's what before they can settle into their roles. Though it's happened a lot with guys, as well (though it's a completely different dynamic), and that doesn't fit my insta-theory, quite.

I tend to give way because I don't give a shit and feel that people who have to pull the "King/Queen of the Sidewalk" game must have sad, petty lives. One of my few disappointments in the mister is that he plays passive/aggressive games while driving (not walking). In his defense, he's responding to someone being overly agressive so maybe it's warranted. And maybe I am just a wimpy pushover. *shrug*

I also don't recall ever been the recipient of passive/agressive needling from other females (although I was bullied plenty by males). Maybe I'm just obtuse or I'm so low on the totem pole I don't qualify for snarky remarks. I also haven't had any close girlfriends since high school so maybe I've missed out on learning to spot the comments. However, I'm going to take a page out of taz's book and call people on it when I notice it. I hate meanies.

Anyway, this is a very interesting, and enlightening, thread.

occhiblu: It's not a revelation that their world view is skewed so much as a reordering of their existing world view, now with taz on top because she's shown herself to be unintimidated.

Good point! This is probably true!

But I think taz looks like a more plausible alpha-female than I do... :)

Taz, Me

Awww, I'd follow either of you. :)

oooh... I need to put a description on that photo - it was one of the first I put on vox, and didn't quite have the routine down. That was from about 13 or 14 years ago, in our old place in New Orleans (for the vox QotD about memorable buildings you've lived in).

I'm a much older dog now. Aarrf!