MetaChat - I'm of two minds about this.

oookayyy... sure. dunno about anyone else but this puts me in mind of uselessly underqualified white men bitching about 'affirmative action quotas' whenever someone black / female / hispanic / pickyourminority gets a job / raise /promotion they did not.

two wrongs don't make a right, yes. but otoh, suck it up and deal, whiners. or move.

posted by lonefrontranger 26 July | 14:32

Well, pup, I'm obviously sympathetic on some levels, but at the same time it kind of proves my oft stated point that if a given group finds themselves dominant in any given context, they're gonna feel comfortable bullying and excluding those outside their group. Queerfolk are the equal of straightfolk, which also means that they can often be assholes.

Yeah, being called 'breeder,' is nothing compared to discrimination, but hemmorhoids are nothing compared to cancer, but I still do without both. Or we could abandoned the language policing entirely and simply judge people on how they act or some crazy idea like that.

posted by jonmc 26 July | 14:32

People who signed a petition against gay marraige are accused of being bigots...

Sounds pretty accurate to me.

posted by I Love Tacos 26 July | 14:38

I call straight people "breeders" too, and I am a man who is attracted to women. It's not really an insult, just a description of people who insist on thrusting the results of their ugly and uninteresting genetic cockup out of their womb and into a pram that they then use to block the aisles on public transit.

posted by cmonkey 26 July | 14:39

*nods head in agreement with cmonkey*

Well, except the "and I am a man..." part.

posted by getoffmylawn 26 July | 14:42

I dunno, cmonkey, it's too much, 'I was oppressed, so I get to be a prick,' which is fine as long as we're honest about it, but don't pretend it's anything other than that.

posted by jonmc 26 July | 14:45

I don't think it has anything to do with someone being oppressed in the past. People just like being assholes, it doesn't really require any justification.

posted by cmonkey 26 July | 14:51

thank you cmonkey. you r00lz teh int3rwebs.

nothing to see here, move along.

posted by lonefrontranger 26 July | 14:52

Here's the thing. The people who signed the petition have to be accountable for the statemtent expressed in the petition (I'm assuming it's a matter of public record, as most legislative petitions are). The web site had every right to publish their names, as does any newspaper or radio station or any other outlet. All of us should be aware that when we sign a petition, we're going on record. Unfortunately for those who may not be bigots but oppose the legislation for some other reason (for example, that you are gay but oppose the idea of legal marriage in general) a petition doesn't give you a platform for explaining why you're advocating a position.

I'm not supporting any instances of hate speech, just trying to place the blame where it really lies. The altercations are the actions of a few; it wouldn't be fair to blame the whole class of gay P-towners for the rudeness.

posted by Miko 26 July | 14:53

HUH? jonmc & cmonkey, you lost me.

posted by getoffmylawn 26 July | 14:54

insist on thrusting the results of their ugly and uninteresting genetic cockup

What the fuck was that, cmonkey?
*hopes it was just playing on the "it's ok to be gay, just don't hold hands in public" mindset*

posted by danostuporstar 26 July | 14:55

it's too much, 'I was oppressed, so I get to be a prick,' which is fine as long as we're honest about it, but don't pretend it's anything other than that.

I think you're making a big leap and a big generalization, jon, and I think you may be talking too much when you don't really have anything to say.

Provincetown is a community that has traditionally been one of the few places where gay people can vacation and feel safe holding hands. The debate over gay marriage has roiled the calm waters. Okay, facts. And one guy yelled at a woman signing a petition. Kind of dickish, but it happens.

I don't believe that there's a gay mafia planting dog shit next to the SUVs of Provincetown straight people, but the story smacks of that kind of hysteria. (To me.)

The tone of the story, to me, is "there goes the neighborhood." Those poor, oppressed straight people feel outnumbered and they're getting nervous. Poor them.

But frankly, "I was oppressed so I get to be a prick" is offensive to me. (And "don't pretend it's anything other than that" is doubly offensive. You're not the final arbiter.)

posted by mudpuppie 26 July | 14:58

cmonkey, you're somebody's child too...

posted by pieisexactlythree 26 July | 15:06

mudpuppie, I consider you a friend so I'm going to choose my words very delicately.

I'm saying that somebody who would call someone a 'breeder' is a prick, not anyone who might harbor resentment.

and I don't claim to be the final arbiter of anything, but I call it as I see it.

I don't believe that there's a gay mafia planting dog shit next to the SUVs of Provincetown straight people,

I don't either, but human nature in general tells me that when people feel dominant enough they feel comfortable ridiculing those unlike them, and maybe they feel doubly justified if they come from a historically oppressed group. At best, this kind of crap is counter-productive, that's it.

posted by jonmc 26 July | 15:10

One woman who signed a petition against gay marriage says she was berated as a bigot by a gay man

I would have berated her and I'm straight. As for the term "breeders," the only time I remember being offended by its use, it was being wielded by a straight person.

posted by jrossi4r 26 July | 15:13

One woman who signed a petition against gay marriage says she was berated as a bigot by a gay man.

It may just be a reflection on me, but I feel that way also. I got in trouble here at work for alluding to people who are against gay marriage as being bigots.

At the same time, I was in Eugene during the Separatist 70's and while I am natively sympathetic towards gay people, or at least have no problem with it, the behavior and statements directed towards me, as a male, were quite offensive. Once, my wife had to drop by a lez household to pick something up, and I was not allowed in with her. Had to stay in the car.

So like mudpuppie I am of two minds about this. No "group" has a corner on assholes.

posted by danf 26 July | 15:15

(and for the record, while I have been called 'faggot,' and experienced homophobia firsthand, I've never been called a 'breeder,' or excluded from anything by gayfolk. I'm just know that the woods are full of assholes of all stripes. why should queerfolk be any different?)

posted by jonmc 26 July | 15:15

hey pi and dano, I don't think cmonkey was being aggressively dickish about the child-hating thing. I'm pretty sure he was using a bit of hyperbole (which is kinda hard to interpret on the web, granted) at the expense of the "OMG I am SO SPECIAL BECAUSE I HAVE A KID!!!!" mentality of *some* (not all) parents.

IMO he was just stating a similar angst as my recent blog post. Let me be VERY clear here: I do not hate children. At all. What I hate is the needlessly self-centred asshole mentality of some of their keepers.

not that cmonkey needs me to come to his defence, either. just sayin.

posted by lonefrontranger 26 July | 15:16

It's not really an insult, just a description of people who insist on thrusting the results of their ugly and uninteresting genetic cockup out of their womb and into a pram that they then use to block the aisles on public transit.

And there's not a woman somewhere on the web for him? Can't believe it.

posted by danf 26 July | 15:17

mmmm. I too am in 2 minds about this. I tend towards the pupsicle way of thinking.

I do dislike being called a breeder though. For starters, it's inaccurate because I haven't spawned any. I'm a breeder in potentia, I guess. So I'm just as much of a breeder as any gay person with functional sexual organs as far as I'm concerned. Might as well call me a child molester, a dentist or whatever else I have the potential to do. But I dislike being called anything if it's meant in a derogatory fashion.

posted by gaspode 26 July | 15:18

Agrees with the mild harassment of the bigots. Me no likes the bigots.

Disagrees with the harassment of people as breeders. Me no likes the bigots.

posted by Zack_Replica 26 July | 15:19

ranger, you're right, and the people who suffer the most from that are probably the kids themselves. Frequently, I suspect people with little else in their lives to give them meaning have kids, and then project much of their identity on them, thus objectifying them and permanently infantalizing them.

jonmc, you don't need to be gay to be gaybashed. It's happened to me more times than I can count (at least I've been meanced and threatend, that is).

posted by pieisexactlythree 26 July | 15:21

Since I have friends who are "childfree," I think that there's a bit of misconception (no pun intended) about what the word "breeder" means. As I understand it, a breeder is one who pops out kids indiscriminately, without thinking of the consequences of getting or getting someone else pregnant. Breeders are people who can't care for their children in various ways and thus let them act out in public like spoiled brats, don't correct anti-social behavior like knocking over store displays, can't feed or clothe them properly, etc. "Moos" are an even worse term because it implies that the female breeder is nothing more than a milk machine for her cow-like offspring. "Breeder" makes me upset, "moo" makes me want to see red.

I would hope, though, that any one who has ever been in a part of a minority group would have the kind of empathy and sensitivity to understand the viewpoint of their "opponents" if the shoe were to ever be on the other foot. We're libbies, we're supposed to be better than that.

On a tangent, I think that though it's the right of people to live and work wherever they want to, as they said recently on "The Daily Show", if you live next to an airport, don't complain about the noise of the planes flying overhead or the traffic that results of people trying to get to the airport all at the same time. (This was, in fact, in regards to a piece they did on a het man who wants folks to tone things down in the Castro District in San Fran.)

posted by TrishaLynn 26 July | 15:22

Trish, it makes all the difference in the world (from a moral standpont)whether or not the airport was there when you moved there. If it wasn't, then you've got some right to complain, but otherwise, buyer beware.

posted by pieisexactlythree 26 July | 15:26

Just to limit the airport analogy, as regards P-Town, it's been a gay resort since at least the 50s. It's not a situation in which They just Took Over. The legislative activity and its fallout is the precipitating event, not a sudden influx of gay people.

posted by Miko 26 July | 15:30

I very much like and respect cmonkey, lonefrontranger, which is why I put the best interpretation on his comment that I could, and I don't really care if someone wants to call me 'breeder'. But calling my kids names, based solely on their being alive, is pretty offensive to me.

posted by danostuporstar 26 July | 15:31

Miko, no doubt most of the locals long ago learned that from a business perspective, pink=green

dano, I think that's fair

posted by pieisexactlythree 26 July | 15:33

Sometimes in an unguarded moment I'll express my opinion about kids in a strong way, maybe not using quite the words cmonkey did, but feeling along a similar axis. But then if you called me on it and said "well what about your friend X who has kids or your friend Y who is a child", I'd demur and say, well, I didn't mean that, I mean people who have kids without really thinking about what a responsibility they are and who don't teach them that there's such a thing as an "inside voice" and basically give them no guidance on how to behave in adult society. Or people who think there's something wrong with me because I don't feel about kids the same way they do and I don't want to have any. And there are a million of those people, and they drive me crazy.

posted by matildaben 26 July | 15:36

"We're all human, including gay people."

That dude is dumb.

posted by sciurus 26 July | 15:41

I went to Provincetown once for a week, with a group of friends, and was totally charmed by the city. Everyone, from the gay couple running our B&B, to the clerk at one of the gift stores, was so nice. I'd hate to think that's changing.

posted by ThePinkSuperhero 26 July | 15:41

pink=green

Yep, except that it isn't quite as simple a debate as drawing a dividing line between 'locals' and 'gay people'; it's more of a Venn diagram. Many of the locals (I was going to say the majority, but I don't have any numbers handy) are gay people, including the business owners. The tourist economy includes both gay and straight visitors. (It's fun to walk down the streets and kids and their families from the farm country staring in the windows of the sex shops). You'd have to throw rocks a long, long time before you hit someone who could really claim to be a generations-old local. Like a lot of pretty spots in New England, the place is populated with mostly people who can afford it, mostly people from elsewhere.

Anyway, there's a thorough and long-term integration that has been amazingly peaceful for more than fifty years.

posted by Miko 26 July | 15:43

This contributes to my theory that economic interdependance, trade and prosperity are highly conducive of peace and tolerance.

posted by pieisexactlythree 26 July | 15:47

matildaben: yes. exactly that.

dano: lemme try to explain without being an ass. it's hard, because I'm an ass on a regular basis. plus I'm rude and cynical and antisocial and I tend to let my internal dialogue slip out way more than I'd like... but I'll try to explain where (I think) cmonkey and I are going with this. I know for my own part that I'm not anti-kid, nor would I ever intentionally insult someone's kids.

Anonymous hyperbole on the internet(s) notwithstanding, it strikes me that perhaps you're being a tad offensensitive? Maybe not, like I said it's hard to judge by text on a screen.

keep in mind: life is not fair, nor is it always warm fuzzy and cute, much as we'd dearly love it to be. life is short, brutal and ugly, and people get their feelings hurt quite frequently. now, I don't get off on intentionally offending people. but, on the other hand, you might consider that your kids WILL get called names in their lives, and you're not always going to be there to protect them. god knows elementary school is gonna provide them with plenty of opportunities to discover just where on the social pecking order they belong.

so... uh, hell forget about it. I don't think we'll agree on this one. just remember that it wasn't directly intended as an insult at YOUR kids, or anyone's kids in general, it was more of a primal scream at the state of society in general. mkay?

posted by lonefrontranger 26 July | 15:48

To me P-town sounds like a place gays are accepted and comfortable enough to act like anyone else does everywhere else. If that means they are assholes to their neighbors, well, I don't really think being gay has anything to do with it. As a matter of fact, it's refreshing to see that all gays aren't the super-friendly, super-helpful, super-fashionable wonderpeople that we see on TV. It's nice to see they can be bad neighbors, too.

And props to Gaspode for being 100% correct on the "breeders" controversy. Gaspode is the final arbiter on that one. (To me.)

My only real problem here, though, is seeing someone tell someone else that they're talking without anything to say, just because their opinion is disagreeable. There was a time when I had all sorts of energy for fights here, and I wouldn't have said that. It's worse than "shut up," and them's fighting words. Ease off a bit.

posted by Hugh Janus 26 July | 15:49

But this news also supports my theory that culture is stronger than commerce.

;)

posted by Miko 26 July | 15:49

Can you really separate the two? Commerce is a manifestation of culture. Afterall, commerce takes multitudinous forms thorugh time and around the world. The mode in which it is conducted says much about the milieu in which it takes place.

posted by pieisexactlythree 26 July | 15:53

I'm a breeder reactor.

posted by It's Raining Florence Henderson 26 July | 15:53

I don't think cmonkey was being aggressively dickish about the child-hating thing. I'm pretty sure he was using a bit of hyperbole (which is kinda hard to interpret on the web, granted) at the expense of the "OMG I am SO SPECIAL BECAUSE I HAVE A KID!!!!" mentality of *some* (not all) parents.

Yeah, it was just hyperbole, like lonefrontranger said. Hell, I can't even recall the last time the word "breeder" came out of my mouth, and it certainly wasn't said to someone with kids. But some, certainly not all, parents seem to believe that the rest of us are as enthralled with their children as they are, but in reality we really don't find them cute and interesting, we just want to be able to eat in peace, move about the tram or the bus without tripping over a stroller, and not have a toddler throwing toys at us while the child's parent stares vacantly off into space. It's not much to ask, but some parents seem to think that giving birth grants them special immunity from common courtesy. I've got nothing against the kids, dano, I feel sorry for them, having to grow up with parents who only had children so someone would care about them.

posted by cmonkey 26 July | 15:54

Sure, pie. That's true.

Just saying, though, that if prosperity were enough to nurture all the needs of the entire human family, nobody would be fighting about gay marriage.

posted by Miko 26 July | 15:54

'm a breeder reactor.

Hey, man, that rod of U235 is someone's child!

Miko, that's exactly what I'm screaming. Notice how gay marriage is only put on the legislative agenda by the Republicans when an election is approaching?

cmonkey, its those kids who grow up to be the assholes we're all talking about here.

posted by pieisexactlythree 26 July | 15:57

In other news. . .*sigh* . . .the woman who complained of the harassment can sleep better tonight.

posted by danf 26 July | 15:58

Yeah, definitely a diversionary tactic. Sad that some don't perceive that.

Depressing news, danf.

posted by Miko 26 July | 16:06

I'm a breeder in potentia, I guess.

I just spent the last hour fixing a horrible Power Point presentation, and my screen-addled eyeballs read this as "I'm a breeder in polenta, I guess."

I thought, wow, 'Pode is kinky.

posted by SassHat 26 July | 16:16

And here I thought that she had these wonderful assignations, interludes and trysts among pointsettias.

posted by danf 26 July | 16:19

I'm pretty sure that people are getting hysterical over nothing. Come on, you find dog poo next to your car and blame the gays? I think that people who live in a town with a large gay population, then turn around and sign the petition to ban gay marriage are probably feeling guilty and threatened.

You know what's going to happen? All the bigots are going to move to New Hampshire. I don't know how many friends' parents in high school were originally from Mass., and explained to me how they had moved to New Hampshire when their kids were born because "the Puerto Ricans moved in" or
"the blacks took over" some town like Lawrence or whatever.

So what will happen is that all the anti-homo Massholes will move up to New Hampshire and all the New Hampshire people will bitch about how their state is filling up with assholes. And who knows? Maybe the cycle will continue and they will move to another state? Maybe yours!

posted by SassHat 26 July | 16:23

But what about the soil? Don't you know what the queers are doing to the soil?

posted by pieisexactlythree 26 July | 16:27

the anti-homo Massholes will move up to New Hampshire

Nooooooo!

Keep moving, folks. I hear there's a nice plot of windswept barren tundra available for ya somewhere up around the 70th parallel. Great schools! We'd all feel better if you were up
there.

posted by Miko 26 July | 16:28

...some parents seem to think that giving birth grants them special immunity from common courtesy...

Well said! It's that kind of entitlement that drives me nuts. Kids grow up to be adults. If they don't learn how to function in common society from their parents, it's going to be everyone else's job to teach them how, probably when it's far too late, and then they'll get elected president, and we'll all be in trouble.

posted by matildaben 26 July | 17:34

another complained that dog feces were left next to her car

Maybe, by a dog.
taking a crap.

I bet it was just trying to have a go at the stinking humans for being, well, human.

posted by seanyboy 26 July | 18:13

Sorry, I overreacted. I'm tired and stressed out. I still don't think name-calling accomplishes much, though.

posted by jonmc 26 July | 18:16

Don't be fooled by the propaganda. Each and every homosexual person is given three things when they have proven that they will unconditionally support the gay agenda. The first is a book on how to destroy Christian values and convert society to devilry. The second is the Camp Handbook which is used to make people underestimate the more insidious agents. The third is a variety of intimidation props including a small dog which poops at a greatly increased rate over normal dogs.

posted by weretable and the undead chairs 26 July | 18:28

Jon, Mats is right - and so are you: bad parenting or lack of parenting, tends to result in people who continue to resolved conflicts with playground neener neener tactics.

posted by pieisexactlythree 26 July | 18:30

Weretable, you forgot the toaster oven. You get one of those for signing up.

posted by mudpuppie 26 July | 18:35

Cmonkey and Matildaben, I can see your point. I am personally responsible for two souls on this planet, but I have quite often rolled my eyes over friends and strangers who seem to think they were the only ones to ever give birth, that their child(ren) are the next Messiah or something. And it's a fact that schools are now just as concerned with protecting their precious little egos as they are teaching reading. Children these days are constantly told they can achieve anything they want. They are being raised to believe that certain jobs are "beneath them". They sail forth in the world waiting to be waited on, and then reality smacks them in the face. They don't get their dream job, or their dream job turns out to be a bucket of mud. They end up getting depressed, since they were never given any coping mechanisms. To date, Prozac is being prescribed for more people in their twenties than ever before. And all because Mommy's little angel could do no wrong.
And on the other subject-don't sign a petition you don't want people to know you signed. If you feel that strongly, back it up. Me, I don't understand this whole argument against homosexual marriages. Marriage is between two people who love each other, no matter what body parts they may have or desire.

posted by redvixen 26 July | 20:16

'Breeder' is a slur. It is intended to be a slur and derives most of its connotative meaning from it's shock value. To use it and then to argue that you're not referring to all straight people who procreate, just the ones who, you know, act like breeders is false on its surface. It sounds too much like the rationalization I've heard racists use for the n-word. Now, I don't have much of a problem with slurs in many contexts, but those people who do ought to be able to do better than "boo hoo hoo, crybabies."

I agree with most people here that the townsfolk who signed a petition against the interests of other (gay) townsfolk should expect blowback. But I think the situation changes if either the so-called breeders or the gayfolk involved in the incidents are tourists. In that case, yes, the gayfolk are simply another example of people behaving without common courtesy, people who come in all flavors.

If, based on those gayfolk, I were to say something like "'faggot' isn't really an insult, it's just a description of those santorum-coated cockups who smear dog shit on car windows," I think there would be plenty of WTF reaction going on here. Similarly, if I came across some wino sprawled over the aisle on the bus, and I came here and made a statement which potentially blanketed everyone who'd ever set foot in a bar as an "ugly and uniteresting drunkard" then a callout would probably be in order.

you might consider that your kids WILL get called names in their lives, and you're not always going to be there to protect them.

As a matter of fact, as this thread was being posted my seven-year-old was getting stitches because another boy had hit him in the head with a rock, and I was worried at work not knowing exactly what was going on. So, just as an FYI, an oversensitive reader might find that comment rather patronizing. I don't think you meant it as such, but it did come off that way, mmkay?

posted by danostuporstar 27 July | 08:41

OMG, dano. Is he OK?

And just for the record, I found that statement a little patronizing, too.

posted by jrossi4r 27 July | 08:53

Yeah, he's fine. Just a couple of stitches and no concussion or anything.

posted by danostuporstar 27 July | 09:47

I think you misunderstood me: I wasn't trying to claim that 'breeder' isn't a slur, nor was I trying to justify it. My explaination above was with regards to my over-the-top vitriol.

posted by cmonkey 27 July | 10:15

We're cool, cmonkey. My explaination above was just further enumeration of where of I'm coming from and an attempt to tie it in with the original topic.

posted by danostuporstar 27 July | 10:33

26 July 2006