MetaChat - Are all men like this?

MetaChat is an informal place for MeFites to touch base and post, discuss and chatter about topics that may not belong on MetaFilter. Questions? Check the FAQ. Please note: This is important.

09 June 2006

Are all men like this? I just returned home after being gone for 9 months. My boyfriend seems to have not done much right in my absence.→[More:] Click on the previous link for some of my major gripes. I went to do laundry today, as he had sworn that he had bought laundry detergent. He bought BLEACH instead! The cat hasn't had her nails trimmed since I was here in December. The dog hasn't been given any of his pills that he's supposed to take nightly. There is a pile of magazines and newspapers and bills from December. All of my TiVo shows have been deleted. All my plants (not very sensitive ones) are dead. Dirty clothes that I wore the night before I left in December were still in the laundry hamper. I think that he's been buying new clothes rather than doing laundry as well.

Is this normal male behavior that I should just deal with or am I living with a 37-year-old child? I am raging with anger 24/7 and if I knew that this was somehow normal that I just have to deal with, I think I would feel better.

post by: k8t at: 11:06 | 47 comments

Sorry I didn't have a "read more" - oops! :(

posted by k8t 09 June | 11:06

Is this normal male behavior that I should just deal with or am I living with a 37-year-old child?

Erm... I have some bad news for you...

posted by Capn 09 June | 11:09

It's all a trick to force you to think in insulting stereotypes and narrow-minded generalizations.

posted by Hugh Janus 09 June | 11:17

Well if it were me, I would have made an effort to have things "nice" for my partner's return. And the scope and range of my efforts would have been lacking, in my partner's mindset, and those deficiencies would have been clearly communicated, resulting in the deferral of the connubial bliss that one assumes happens at such times.

That said, it sounds like no effort was made AT ALL.

This is not always a male-female thing. .I know couples where the male is the fastidious one and the female is more laizzez faire. . .

I am sorry you are going through this . . .I hope that you two can meet in the middle, somehow.

posted by danf 09 June | 11:18

He's not going to change. This isn't going to get any better, and it doesn't sound like telling him off will do anything about it, either. At best you may get a half-assed attempt.

Not all men are like this, either. I'm not a clean machine by any stretch, but I can't live in filth like that.

posted by Lipstick Thespian 09 June | 11:19

You might be interested in this book. It has some interesting sections on people (usually) women, coping with households where the cleaning standards between the two partners don't match.

Some of these things you list here, as opposed to your askme thread, don't sound like messes, though. Unpaid bills piling up since December? The dog hasn't been given its meds? The plants not watered? That's irresponsiblity, not messiness. And no, definitely not all men are irresponsible.

posted by JanetLand 09 June | 11:21

That should have been "(usually women)"

posted by JanetLand 09 June | 11:22

I did the "read more", k8t. :)

He sounds like he's in the pits of depression. Maybe the relationship that you had and the reasons you were attracted to him are all still valid, but he's just a psychological mess right now. If not that, then, you two are just completely unsuited for each other... but it's hard to believe you could have lived with him for three years and not realized that.

It definitely seems more like he has a serious depression problem.

posted by taz 09 June | 11:23

I was gonna say "sounds like depression" but taz beat me to it. You definitely don't have to live with this.

posted by matildaben 09 June | 11:32

I'd been biting my tongue on the AskMe post trying not to turn it into a feminist issue, but -- yeah, what JanetLand said. The whole "Oh, guys don't see messes, my wife has to treat me like a child" answers really pissed me off. You share a house, there are responsibilities that come with that, *do* them. It's her not her job to police you, because that makes the entire household her responsibility. Grrr.

It just seems like the equivalent of a bunch of women saying, "Oh, well, you know, I'm just not really cut out for the working outside the home thing, so my husband gives me an allowance and detailed instructions about what to buy and how much to spend. It's just easier that way." Well, no duh it's *easier* not to worry about the housework, but that doesn't make it right. Grr again.

I do think lasy sloppiness is becoming more of an equal-opportunity issue, which is still wrong. It's like "women's work" has been so devalued that now none of us are willing to do it.

All that said (and finally off my chest), it does sound like your boyfriend is farther gone than is normal, and may need to see if he's dealing with depression.

The other thing to look at is whether you "gatekeep" the house responsibilities. Teaching him to do things is one thing, but if you're the one always doling out tasks, or reprimanding him for not doing them correctly, he's not going to take any ownership of the housekeeping.

I actually did like one of the suggestions in the AskMe thread of coming up with a schedule (bathroom gets cleaned once a week, or whatever) and then washing your hands of policing him.

But again, these things aren't going to work if he's depressed.

posted by occhiblu 09 June | 11:33

Well, he was paying the bills online, but the envelopes sit all over the house rather than in a file box.

Also, to add to the description, he is a total packrat. He has jeans, sweaters, and t-shirts from the early 80s still that sit in boxes. (I beg him to give them away!) He claims that they may come back in style. He buys new clothes instead of doing laundry. Myself, I have 3 pairs of jeans, 3 pairs of dressy trousers, and 2 pairs of other khakis or casual pants. He probably has 30 or 40 pairs of pants/shorts (which he can wear to work) purchased in the past 4 years. I'm looking at a shoe rack of 50+ pairs of sneakers and flip flops that are just his. (Granted, we did both use to work for a shoe company and as such I also own 20+ pairs of sneakers, but I give away old ones often.) He also has tons of outdoor gear (again, he has worked at a number of outdoor gear companies), which take up one entire closet and much of the porch.

I was thinking that one solution would be to get a house/apartment with 2 seperate "offices" and that all of his shit has to go in his office and he must be able to keep the door shut. Right now he has 2 desks, and 4 wicker baskets (my attempt at helping him organize) full of papers. If all this stuff was in a room that I didn't have to be in, it'd be fine. He could also keep his outdoor gear in there.

I don't mind being the one that does the cleaning, grocery shopping, gets the mail, takes care of the pets... but I just don't want his papers, gear, and stuff in "common" spaces.

Would giving him his "own room" solve the problem? (and be worth the extra expense.)

posted by k8t 09 June | 11:36

My bf was like this when we first got together, down to the unopened mail and unpaid bills - I didn't particularly do anything about it, though I did express... shall I say surprise?... at the mouldy food in the fridge and the state of the bath. He has changed a lot, especially since I moved in (I am no clean freak, believe me! he is now better at cleaning than I am). I think his singlehood depressed him fairly profoundly, and having a companionable home life has helped him realise how he wants to live in other ways too. You might find once he's got the place back to a habitable state you can find a way of living together cleanly, without too much trouble.

For the bills, we've between us now got everything on direct debit (I think you call this automatic pay or something, but I know you've lived in the UK so you probably know what I'm talking about) so don't have to worry about them at all.

posted by altolinguistic 09 June | 11:37

Oh, and I'm going to make a calendar of cleaning tasks. And perhaps we can do them TOGETHER...

posted by k8t 09 June | 11:37

Doing chores together naked is a great way to cure depression and keep the house clean.

posted by Lipstick Thespian 09 June | 11:41

I set up a rule for my packrat roommate who wanted to change: If you haven't used it in six months (or a year for seasonal items), then toss it. I'd just sit in his room with him while he went through boxes, and keep repeating, "Have you used it in the last six months? No? Throw it out."

Over and over. And over.

I'd be more inclined to make your guy get a storage unit, far away. It might be an easier "sell" for him to dump the stuff if you can more or less prove that he's never going to use it, which is easier to do if it's not in the house.

And if it were me, I'd likely stage an "accident" in which half his boxes were flooded or otherwise damaged, but I'm extremely bitchy when it comes to extreme packrat behavior.

Really, though, this doesn't sound normal or healthy. Have you talked to him about how the whole thing makes you feel? Not, "OMG, you're such a slob!" but "It makes me horrendously unhappy to live like this, and something needs to change. What can we do?"

posted by occhiblu 09 June | 11:44

I'm messy and cluttery, but biological dirt (moldy food, uncleaned toilet) is a no-no. Leaving books and papers around isn't a big deal to me. If it doesn't smell, it's just a mess. If it smells, it's squalor.

posted by matildaben 09 June | 11:47

Slob's don't change, they date/marry anti-slobs and things balance out.

Sounds like he has some growing up to do.

posted by fenriq 09 June | 11:48

My mother-in-law once said to me isn’t it great how B (aka Mr. Betty) helps around the house. My thought was I didn’t know he had a choice he lives here too.

posted by betty 09 June | 11:51

Well if it were me, I would have made an effort to have things "nice" for my partner's return.

Totally!

It definitely seems more like he has a serious depression problem.

Yes.

The whole "Oh, guys don't see messes, my wife has to treat me like a child" answers really pissed me off. You share a house, there are responsibilities that come with that, *do* them.

Exactly.

Unpaid bills piling up since December? The dog hasn't been given its meds? The plants not watered? That's irresponsiblity, not messiness. And no, definitely not all men are irresponsible.

Yep yep yep.

You need to talk to him, as occhiblu suggests.

posted by Specklet 09 June | 11:52

One of the reasons I married my husband is because he knows how to fold a fitted sheet. Before him, I didn't even know it was possible.

I clean because we so frequently have people over. If it weren't for the opinions of others, I'd rarely touch a broom or sponge.

posted by jrossi4r 09 June | 11:54

I could never, EVER live like that. I'm naturally very clean, neat and organized, and I'm a male.

My suggestion? Hire a cleaning service to take care of some of the big stuff and then try to get him to understand that it's disrespectful to you to live like that.

As for saving all the bills in a file box... personally, I file all my paper bills in a shredder. I stopped filing them when I realized that I could get old bills online, and that I never needed them anyway.

posted by I Love Tacos 09 June | 11:58

And no, he is not the norm. I am my wife's partner, we share duties and, while the house isn't spotless, it is clean enough most of the time.

We also have an active 2 year old, a newborn and a big dog with a whip tail. Clutter is inevitable, its the sticky, gooey messes that we avoid as best we can.

posted by fenriq 09 June | 12:00

Does this sound reasonable?

HOUSEHOLD CHORES

living room
- tidy up coffee table and end tables, once a week
- vacuum, two times a month
- sort and throw out magazines and newspapers, two times a month
- dust bookshelves, end tables and coffee table, tv and consoles, once a month

kitchen
- wipe counters after every cooked meal
- put dishes in the dishwasher after every cooked meal
- run dishwasher and put away dishes when needed
- wipe out sinks, two times a week
- take out recycled cans, once a week
- empty fridge of bad food, two times a month
- sweep and mop floors, two times a month
- clean out junk drawers, every other month
- clean fridge completely, two times a year
- empty cupboards of expired food, two times a year

bathrooms
- tidy up counters, once a week
- wipe down counters, twice a month
- wash towels, twice a month
- scrub out showers/bath, once a month
- scrub toilet, once a month
- sweep/mop floors, once a month

bedroom
- vacuum, once a month
- wash sheets, twice a month

office
- vacuum, once a month
- shred old bills, every other month
- pay taxes, once a year

other
- feed and water dog and cat and give dog pills and pumpkin, every night
- get mail, every night
- water plants, once a week (Thursday)
- empty kitty litter, once a week (Thursday)
- do laundry, once a week
- pay bills, two times a month

posted by k8t 09 June | 12:09

I have a split personality about this stuff. In general, I'm a slob. But my pattern my whole life has always been to let things get pretty bad, and then do an extremely thorough clean and straighten up (including putting everything "in its place") about once every six to eigth weeks. My huge problem now is that I can't even come close to cleaning like that anymore because of my health. And I've not learned how to clean-as-you-go.

Anyway, my split personality has always been the worse of both worlds for my partners. On the one hand, I'm a slob. On the other, I've never been with anyone who cleans up to my standards.

But part of all this is my temperment and then my parents. Both of them are neat-freaks. Growing up, there was never any clutter in the house and it was always spotless. Excepting my bedroom, of course. Well, excepting for just after I cleaned it.

By 37, I'd think there's not much hope of changing sensibilities about this. People just need to work out how to be compatible. Unless they happen to have exactly the same habits and sensibilities, there's always going to be some conflict about housework.

posted by kmellis 09 June | 12:10

You're going to overwhelm him with that list, k8t.

You need to talk about the bigger picture/problem, which I think may be depression, but certainly is a lack of respect.

posted by Specklet 09 June | 12:19

Specklet's right. I think the list is reasonable, but I've found in the past that *starting* the conversation with such a list doesn't fix anything (and has always lead to more resentment on my part, since "they HAVE a LIST and they STILL won't DO anything!!!").

posted by occhiblu 09 June | 12:22

My husband and I are both horrible about taking care of anything (besides ourselves, our electronics, and a few plants - and all to only some degree)... but we're equally horrible, so we stay chill, and some of the best times we've had together are when we dive into cleaning, or painting the house, or whatever, because we finally even get disgusted with ourselves.

But.. If two people are thinking about spending their lives together, it seems horrible to me that they might spend every single day of that life feeling either resentful/used or pressured/persecuted. Whatever you do, don't do that.

posted by taz 09 June | 12:26

I don't think that he's depressed. I think that he's just messy, disorganized, and perhaps ADD or has Aspergers. He is a hyper focused analytical person. He is also not terribly good with people. (He doesn't know about mechat, so I can link to an anon post.)

He was messy and disorganized when I met him, but operates slightly better when I'm in charge of the household.

I care about him a lot and I can't imagine giving up on him. He is a good guy and we get along well. And I'm no communication angel.

Sigh. After a lot of thought, I decided that I'd give it another year to see how it works out. We are going to try counseling, which will hopefully help us find better ways to communicate with each other.

posted by k8t 09 June | 12:28

I need to print out that list for myself. The frequencies sound pretty sane for a not-so-neat-freak like myself who, like kmellis, never really learned to clean-as-you-go.

posted by matildaben 09 June | 12:41

Counseling sounds like a good idea, k8t. It sounds like there are a lot more problems, and deeper issues, than just some moldy food in the fridge.

posted by occhiblu 09 June | 12:42

MatildaBen, I made an Excel sheet for it too. If you want it, e-mail me from my profile.

posted by k8t 09 June | 12:53

Move out.

posted by jokeefe 09 June | 12:55

Sorry, above is too short and flip, but I have to ask: why stay? On the other hand, I know about debilitating clutter, and the inertia it radiates: the only thing that finally cleared my old apartment, because I couldn't rouse myself emotionally to do it, was moving. Perhaps you could move together? I don't think that sounds any more drastic than going crazy from living in such a stressful environment.

posted by jokeefe 09 June | 12:58

The clutter and other stuff is annoying, but it isn't enough to not want to try to make a life with this guy. I've been with him for 4 years.

And yes, I am trying to move with him. He moved out household cross-country while I was abroad and I think it'd be better for us to move to a new place that meets both of our needs.

posted by k8t 09 June | 13:05

If you aren't exagerating, this is not normal behavior, male or female.

I have a couple of friends like that (one just wallows in his filth, the other is living with his parents and they clean up after him) and it's something that I just don't get.

If he's lasted 9 months without cleaning up, it's unlikely that he'll change on his own recognizance. If he gets "his rooms" or "his side of the house" it'll still remain horrible.

Would hiring (bi-)weekly cleaning services help (after you've done the initial damage control)?

posted by porpoise 09 June | 13:15

You really need to calm down about it and consider the way you're framing this.

This is not an issue of him being a slob and therefore a "child." Lots of grownups are slobs. Full-on, no-shit, 100% grown up people can be disorganized and messy. Perfectly decent people who are upstanding adults can honestly and sincerely not give a shit about clutter and disorder. He seems to be pretty far out along this spectrum towards the PigPen-from-Peanuts end.

If you continue pressing this as an issue of "Why won't you just have the same preferences I do, you moron?", you're going to lose. This is a terrible way to treat someone. He obviously does not have the same preferences about cleanliness that you do. Okay. Lots of people don't, even if his apparent preferences are kind of nuts. Telling him to just up and change his preferences or values because the ones he has aren't good enough isn't going to get very far.

The issue is just one of him going along with you to make you happier. It doesn't matter whether he should clean up on his own, or prefer a cleaner house than he does. What matters is that he should do this activity that he thinks is, at base, really pretty pointless to humor you. To make you happier, or because it's important to you, not because the activity has some inherent worth that he just refuses to see. And on that basis alone, he's fucked up but good.

posted by ROU Xenophobe 09 June | 13:40

It really bugs me if it has a been one month since I have vaccumed. And I mean moving out furniture and cleaning under it, taking things off shelves, wiping down baseboards, etc.

I do not understand slobs. I couldn't get to that point. Suicide would lie on the road of depression sooner than "ignore fungus growing in bathtub" would...

posted by weretable and the undead chairs 09 June | 13:45

Suicide would lie on the road of depression sooner than "ignore fungus growing in bathtub" would...

Same here, no joking.

posted by I Love Tacos 09 June | 14:05

I will admit I'm slightly anal, but as a young male (age 22) this drives me crazy. Three of my roommates this past year would have let the house deteriorate into this type of situation if there hadn't been the other two of us as balancing influences. Partly it was because they just didn't see anything wrong with leaving things out and letting filth accumulate everywhere, and partly it was a result of them having mothers who did everything for them, so they haven't really learned how to take care of themselves.

I'm sorry to say that while it might be somewhat common, it isn't normal behavior for any well-adjusted adult. Depression is possible, but I wouldn't pin his behavior on it. His negligence is just him being inconsiderate. It might have something to do with the behaviors you linked to in the anon post; he dosn't seem to consider or understand your desires for a clean place.

It's a good sign that he says he at least did some cleaning before you came back, though I would hate to know what it had been like before. If he hadn't, I would say there was something bigger going on. I agree that anger is not the answer, but neither is a cleaning service. Paying somebody else so you don't have to deal with your problems doesn't sit well with me. He just needs to figure out that some standard of cleanliness is important to you, and as rou xenophobe said, work with you to keep that standard because it pleases you.

(crossposted to AskMe for posterity)

posted by kyleg 09 June | 14:28

Quickie note, I already chimed in in the AskMe thread. If he's really ADD, a huge list won't help at all, it will make things worse. What might help is a calendar-type situation where there is just a thing to do in the day box. What also might help is if the instructions were more like questions and less like directives. Color code for room type (and maybe group the stuff so he can spend cleaning time in one room every few days, not all over the place) and have some deal like "don't go to bed without doing whatever is on the calendar" which is a simpler thing to remember, even if he's doing the stuff at 2 am.

If you guys are living together -- are you back for good now? -- I can see why certain things need to be done regularly, but if he's living alone, I don't see a reason why he should be tidying bathroom counters weekly, unless you think that incremental cleaning will help. I'd go with some sort of weekly plan where the Saturday box says things like "recycling need to go out?" and Monday says "Laundry - include sheets" or something.

I'm also with JanetLand, not giving the dog medicine really is irresponsible, not just slobby. Seems to me there is something else at work here.

posted by jessamyn 09 June | 14:32

Yeah, not caring properly for the animals that he is responsible for is where this crosses the line for me from personality trait to (moving towards) pathological.

posted by jokeefe 09 June | 14:42

I haven't read the AskMe thread, but I'm sure you've discussed with him the general health issues at work here, from mold spores and allergens to bacteria to dust mites and rodents and so on? I mean, cleaing your house isn't just a matter of it looking nice, it's a matter of heaving a healthy environment to live in.

posted by jokeefe 09 June | 14:45

As one who took a good guy for granted, don't give up on what you have. Think about what's really important to you. Do everything you can on your end to make things good between you. It tends to come back to you in wonderful ways; the vacuuming may not be done, but the way he throws his leg over yours at night in his sleep is worth a less-than-spotless rug.

If you were gone for nine months, it might take a little time to reconnect, too. Maybe... I don't really know your situation.

All the best, though. Love is worth it. You can decide what to be frustrated about or not. Be each other's soft place to fall (that's from Dr. Phil, of all people, but sometimes he hits it right).

posted by Pips 09 June | 15:14

(p.s., burn the lists -- for you and him)

posted by Pips 09 June | 15:15

I found a cleaning service and asked for an estimate.

I am going to hire them to come 2X a month for the next 2 months. (I'm leaving to do an intensive summer language program but will be back in August... hopefully to a clean house.)

When I get back, I am REALLY hoping that we can move into a new place. This is not only because I am not fond of our current place and don't like that the animal are cooped up when they are accustomed to going outside a lot more, but also so we can move together and hopefully purge and organize from scratch. I also want to find a place with a 2nd bedroom that can be full of his shit.

He is up for the idea of moving as well.

Thanks for everyone's help. It is nice to not feel alone.

posted by k8t 09 June | 16:18

As I've said on IRC, I'm available as a househusband. I'm very clean and can learn many new domestic skills. However, I do not wake up before 10am, so breakfast is up to you.

Also, I'm only interested in a wife that makes at least $250,000 a year, or has substantial family wealth.

Please submit proposals with pictures to the email address in my profile.

posted by mullacc 09 June | 16:19

so you were gone for 9 months, and now you're leaving again until august? if i were your guy, i'd likely be pretty bummed out, too. nevertheless, the dog should get its medicine... there's no excuse for that.

posted by Wedge 09 June | 16:59

← Ole! || You couldn't make it up →

HOME || REGISTER || LOGIN