MetaChat - Best headline (and rant) of the day: "Christian Virgins Are Overrated"

Eh. If people want to do purity balls, more power to them. If people want to be virgins until they're married, more power to them. What's with all the anger and hatred?

posted by ThePinkSuperhero 12 May | 13:03

I hear that shaving your purity balls makes your hymen look bigger.

posted by taz 12 May | 13:03

Haha, I just remembered a conversation between one of my younger sisters (the ultra conservative one, who wants to be a missionary) and my parents a year back or so:

Lee: I want a purity ring.
Dad: What's that?
Lee: It's a ring parents give their daughters, so they promise to be virgins until they're married.
Mom: We expect our daughters to be virgins without rings.

posted by ThePinkSuperhero 12 May | 13:06

TPS, I agree with you. Live and let live. He has a point about sexual education, though.

posted by mudpuppie 12 May | 13:06

Oh yea, sexual education is important. And I'm glad my parents aren't the "purity ball" kind of Christian- they're very good about avoiding crap like that, it's one thing I LOVE about them. But I know plenty of girls with rings, who do balls, etc... and there are worse things then parents and children spending time together, ya know?

posted by ThePinkSuperhero 12 May | 13:09

I'm inclined to agree with you, TPS. The idea of the Purity Ball is really revolting and I think we should have mandatory sexual health education in schools, but if people want to wait, there's nothing wrong with that.

But as far as abstinence before marriage being

the standard recipe for emotional, physical and spiritual catastrophe, for roughly 17 years of vague marital misery capped off by divorce and much therapy and four unhappy children and the profound and aching need located somewhere deep beneath the pelvic bone to try something, anything new and different and sexually liberating.,

give me a break. Where does it say that unless you lose your virginity before marriage and have multiple partners you'll never enjoy sex? Sure, it'll be awkward at first, but you'll catch on. People have been figuring out sex for thousands of years.

posted by Orange Swan 12 May | 13:24

Exactly, Orange Swan- I have plenty of friends who were virgins when they got married, and they don't seem horribly unhappy with their marriage (I don't ask for in-depth details, but I assume everything is... hunky-dory). Marital misery doesn't seem to discriminate- People who consider themselves evangelical Christians have the same divorce rate as the general population- the SAME, not higher.

posted by ThePinkSuperhero 12 May | 13:27

Ha! "Purity Balls"

posted by deborah 12 May | 13:37

Heh. I bet the fashion at a purity ball is atrocious- after all, the outfits have to be modest.

posted by ThePinkSuperhero 12 May | 13:38

One thing that's wrong with it is the patriarchy aspect - girls under their father's then imaginary husband's control. It's right backwards.

posted by rainbaby 12 May | 13:39

Right. Absolutely.

The problem is when you don't get sex education. Then the people who don't manage to stay virgins often miss out completely on learning important facts about STDs and pregnancy prevention.

Gah - if only we could properly promote self esteem and informed decision making and other such things, where both abstinence and protected sex were both good things. Unfortunately this isn't gonna happen.

posted by gaspode 12 May | 13:40

I think that all the hatred comes from someone whose rent's due and needs a paycheque to make it. People who look different from us haven't done anything stupid in a while, so I might as well have a go at the Christians. It's 'easy'. "Lookit the freaks, mommy, lookit!"
The worst thing about the Purity Balls (well, apart from the name. I mean, *really*. I wonder if their balls are always bouncing, to the left and to the right, and I wonder if they believe that their big balls should be held every night?) is the copy: "It is impossible to convey what I have seen in their sweet spirits, their delicate, forming souls, as their daddy takes them out for their first, big dance. Their whole being absorbs my loving attention, resulting in a radiant sense of self-worth and identity." We got adjectives by the bucketload here! wewt! *gag*

Getting back to mudp's point about the headline. I'll bet they _are_ overrated! But...... how would you know, really? Do you get a Bucket o' Virgins™ and try 'em all out? One from each culture? "I've banged half the girls on the globe and it's true!" Frankly speaking (IMHO, of course) virgin's are overrated. Waiting for the vagina to stretch enough to have pleasurable sex (for both parties) isn't my idea of a good time. Oh, and yes, I do speak from first-hand experience.
so there.

posted by Zack_Replica 12 May | 14:06

Purity balls (as described in the column) sound like they're heavy with incestual undertones that would give any outsider the heebie-jeebies. Which was probably the writer's intention, so he was successful.

I had a girlfriend who was determined to stay a virgin until marriage, and yet we were still able to have a pretty active sex life. We may not have "done it," but we certainly weren't repressed.

posted by me3dia 12 May | 14:09

I had a few friends who were determined to save it for marriage. If that's how they feel, more power to them. And I remember that when my parents found out that my sister was sleeping with her boyfriend in high school (via a note she left carelessly inher pocket), the house was like Guadalcanal for awhile. To be fair to my parents, the guy was a 14karat loser, but there were some very harsh words thrown around. Me, I graduated from high school virginal, not out of any moral rectitude, just acne, bad hair and social ineptness.

posted by jonmc 12 May | 14:14

...By which I mean to point out that a virginity pledge doesn't have to mean a celibacy pledge.

posted by me3dia 12 May | 14:15

The whole dad-hands-over aspect weirds me out too, rainbaby. Even though it's voluntarily, it veers a little too close to old-fashioned ideas of ownership to be comfortable. But more power to them if it's something they really want to do (vs. familial/religious/peer pressure).

posted by flopsy 12 May | 14:19

Oh, and because I have to say it: are there purity balls for boys (hee!) too? Or is their virginity not as cherished and sacred?

posted by gaspode 12 May | 14:23

Oh, and because I have to say it: are there purity balls for boys (hee!) too? Or is their virginity not as cherished and sacred?

I dunno about the people in the article, but at least one of the save-it-for-marraige people I knew was male.

posted by jonmc 12 May | 14:24

what an excellent read--the last bit especially:
Let's just say it: There is no sacredness in the virgin. There is only the fear, were she to be educated and empowered and really let loose, of what she could become.

posted by whatnot 12 May | 14:27

Let's just say it: There is no sacredness in the virgin. There is only the fear,

Whatnot, while I disagree with the fetishization of virginity that these people engage in, I think it's unfair to judge anyone who chooses to remain virginal till marraige as fearful, just as it's unfair to label those who do not. Freedom of choice all around.

posted by jonmc 12 May | 14:29

It's complicated. You get into issues of how young people make choices. Of course their choices are influenced by their family and peers, that's natural.

I can imagine a young girl really wanting to do such a thing, then, a few years later, changing her mind and going through really horrible guilt and confusion.

posted by rainbaby 12 May | 14:31

No purity balls for boys, gaspode, or purity rings, as far as I know. Men get mens retreats, where they go off to do "manly" things. I know because my sister's boyfriend runs some sort of men's accountability group on his college campus.

posted by ThePinkSuperhero 12 May | 14:33

OK, but they are still staying virgins right? Or is it don't ask don't tell?

posted by gaspode 12 May | 14:37

Oh yes, they're still staying virgins, and, more importantly, not having lustful thoughts and jerking off. It seems the latter was discussed more- maybe because the virgin thing is supposed to be a given?

posted by ThePinkSuperhero 12 May | 14:52

I can imagine a young girl really wanting to do such a thing, then, a few years later, changing her mind and going through really horrible guilt and confusion.

Well, that's sort of life in general isn't it. There's never going to be a world where everything's safe and cooperative and supportive, so I figure at least we can have interesting neuroses.

(Oddly there's been several times in my life where I wish I had taken some kind of virginity pledge, for a variety of reasons, but I'm peculiar)

posted by jonmc 12 May | 14:53

Let's just say it: There is no sacredness in the virgin. There is only the fear, were she to be educated and empowered and really let loose, of what she could become.

Hmm, well there used to be, before most of the magic got sucked outta this world. When I read the second line I immediately thought of Joan of Arc, who was a pretty kick-ass virgin. Sometimes it's amazing what channelling all that sexual frustration can do. IIRC Beethoven wasn't getting much when he wrote a few of his pieces either.

posted by Zack_Replica 12 May | 14:57

That fellow's rant pissed me off to no end.

Of course, the "purity balls" weird me out too.

posted by bunnyfire 12 May | 15:05

They also marry younger, have fewer sexual partners (read: less skill)

I have to object to the conclusion there, having lots of partners dosen't neccessarily make you a better lover. Nor does it make you free of sexual hang-ups, I know this from experience.

I don't regret much about my sex life, but sometimes I wish I could've lost my virginity with a virgin, that would've been nice in a fumbling puppy dog kind of way. All this piece really points up is that if there's a relationship where the level of sexual experience of the two people is too different, that's a recipe for conflict, since 1)egos come into play as does trust and 2)it shows that one partner takes sex less seriously than another.

posted by jonmc 12 May | 15:06

Poor things, missing out on the chance to do it with high school boys. Good times. Good times.

posted by jrossi4r 12 May | 15:09

You have to try to imagine the conversation that dad and daughter might have:

Dad: "You still pure?"

Daughter: "Yep."

Dad: "You aren't 'Doing it'?"

Daughter: "Nope."

Dad: "Pure doesn't just mean 'No Fucking'. Also, no sucking, rimming, rubbing off, yanking, spanking, and taking it in the ass."

Daughter: " "

Dad: "Oh. Crap."

posted by sarah connor 12 May | 15:09

Poor things, missing out on the chance to do it with high school boys.

Nonsense. The girls who put out in high school were doing it with college guys, right? right?

posted by jonmc 12 May | 15:10

if there's a relationship where the level of sexual experience of the two people is too different, that's a recipe for conflict...it shows that one partner takes sex less seriously than another.

I don't follow your logic here.

posted by luneray 12 May | 15:12

Well, if somebody's slept with 50 people, sex obviously isn't as big a deal as it is to someone who's slept with say 2. I'm not saying either hypothetical person is better than the other, just saying it's an indication of how seriously they take sex and that's a recipe for conflict.

posted by jonmc 12 May | 15:18

I think that makes sense, jonmc- remove the value judgement around taking it "seriously" and replace it with "how they view" sex, and I think it makes perfect sense.

posted by ThePinkSuperhero 12 May | 15:23

Well, if somebody's slept with 50 people, sex obviously isn't as big a deal as it is to someone who's slept with say 2.

Or you know, the second person could just be ugly as fuck.

posted by gaspode 12 May | 15:24

I didn't mean to imply any value judgement, pink, just make an observation. And I'm by no means pure, but whenever I've tried to do the sex-is-nothing-more-than-a-naked-handshake thing, it dosen't work out well, for me or the other person, esp. since for the other person, it was never about me, just about whatever neurosis they were working through that I happened to stumble in the middle of.

Or you know, the second person could just be ugly as fuck.

I know you're kidding around, but that's another odd judgement that comes up in this topic and it's oddly different for men and women. Even an unnattractive woman can get sex anytime she wants, and women and men know this. For unattractive men, it's a whole other story, which leads to them feeling themselves unlovable, which often means that if they run into a woman who will have sex with them, they kind of need it to be more than just "the girl was feeling reandy/neurotic/bored and you happened to be there." Truth be told the scenario I described can't feel good for anyone.

posted by jonmc 12 May | 15:30

I think you're starting to get through to a key point there jon in that people have a real problem dissociating what works for themselves wft attitudes towards sex, and what they think should work for society. And both extremes are as bad for making value judgements as the other.

Of course, this is the issue with most of these sorts of problems.

posted by gaspode 12 May | 15:41

Yeah, this is all motes and beams, and they ain't in anybody's eyes, that's for sure.

posted by Hugh Janus 12 May | 15:48

Some choose to be virgins, others have virginity thrust upon them.

posted by Jimbob 12 May | 17:07

We're going out of our way to accept the choice of virgins as just that - a choice made by a person of free will. But Focus on the Family, LDS and others don't take the opposite stance that choosing not to be a virgin can be an equally valid choice. They either demonize it outright or promote educational programs that undermine proper and realistic education.

posted by mullacc 12 May | 17:29

not having lustful thoughts and jerking off.

And this ALWAYS pissed me off. If we don't let guys or girls do it until their married, and they don't get married until they're 18 or 20 or whatever, then that's a good 6 or more years of inflicted sexual confusion as we tell them that release is sinful.

posted by muddgirl 12 May | 17:50

I find the Purity Ball creepy because of the Pledge

The Pledge
I, (daughter’s name)’s father, choose before God to cover my daughter as her authority and protection in the area of purity. I will be pure in my own life as a man, husband and father. I will be a man of integrity and accountability as I lead, guide and pray over my daughter and as the high priest in my home. This covering will be used by God to influence generations to come.

I think it's creepy for Dads to be so concerned with their daughters' sexuality. Encourage your daughter to make conscious, informed choices about sex? Check. Encourage your 15 year old daughter daughter not to have sex? Check. Cover your daughter as High Priest until she marries, and her husband takes over as authority? Ewwww.

posted by theora55 12 May | 18:15

theora55, there is a teaching in Christianity regarding authority-not just in the home, but authority in general-that sees it (authority) as providing protection(covering) for those under it. As Christians we ALWAYS have accountability from some direction or other. In this concept, for example, a husband is supposed to lead, protect and provide. (NOT lord over or boss around.) Of course in practice some guys neglect to remember that last part.

So basically you have to run things like that pledge thru a Christianese translator.

Or just ask me ;-)

posted by bunnyfire 12 May | 19:28

Hehe, bunnyfire, we could write a Christianese dictionary! It'd be a hit best seller.

posted by ThePinkSuperhero 12 May | 23:51

You might want to take into account that a lot of much more conventional things in life also manage to bewilder me... But ritualistic, formalized social affairs that are all about the state of a young girl's vagina? This, to me, is exotic.

And I can't help being amused by the adjunct social functions suggested by extrapolation - all the Anal Modesty Tea Luncheons and Oral Vituosity Garden Parties that cry out to be organized... and how the accompanying oaths and promises might be worded.

posted by taz 13 May | 03:15

12 May 2006