¡Ay Caramba!

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You are what this debate is about. It is about good people who come to America to work, to raise their families, to contribute to their communities, and to reach for the American dream.

This debate goes to the heart of who we are as Americans. It will determine who can earn the privilege of citizenship.

It will determine our strength in separating those who would harm us from those who contribute to our values.

It will determine our future progress as a nation and our future economic growth.

Some in Congress want to turn America away from its true spirit. They believe immigrants are criminals. That's false.

They believe any of us who help immigrants -- even our priests -- are criminals, too. That's false.

They say you should report to deport. I say report to become American citizens.

-- Teddy Kennedy, via

But, I still think that if people started subdividing some posts into "Mecha Whites", "Mecha Latinos", "Mecha Men", "Mecha Heterosexuals", etc. that that would be really weak. It would decrease my interest in participating here.

I'm confused.

All kidding aside, I gotta agree with my paisan matteo. This is a nation of immigrants and that needn't change. It needs to be managed not halted. Remember: Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free?

If you read that whole thread, amro (the one you are quoting from), it is clear that this kind of exclusivity is encouraged here on Metachat. My opinion about fpps which invite participation only from members of a particular group has changed, because most others on that thread, including admin, have said that it's OK to do so.

By the way, are you of latin heritage, amro? Just wondering so that I can value your contribution in this thread more (or less) based upon your answer...

That last question to you is "tongue in cheek", amro, but be honest about whether you are of latin heritage, please. I prefer that only latinos and latinas share their views in this thread, as per the fpp.

me and matteo are of Eye-Talian extraction which makes us swarthy, ill-tempered and fond of spicy sauces. Close enough?

No, now shut your garlic hole Scungilli Pavarotti. This thread is for the Hispano-Suizas and yours truly.

Holy crap, MCgraw is latino/hispanic/etc.? Salutations, my McSpic brother.

perdon, mr. swedish meatball on irish soda bread? if you were any whiter you'd be transparent. any ruddier and you'd be Peter O'Toole on cinco de mayo...any...

got nothin...

c'mon mcgraw, no-one is trying to shut you out of discussion. Mecha is light hearted (occassionally adorably less so) and certain males (jonmc, mike9322) have appeared in TeamVag threads much to our delight.

If you thought the said thread should have been addressing the general public, why don't you just say so, start up a new thread with attribution and go on from there. You'd probably get more comments and eventually we would all gravitate to it.

I am not latina, this thread here could be very interesting, I would certainly read it and maybe contribute but now it is all derisive. Bummer dos per te.

Wait, mcgraw, is this a serious thread or another where you pop in 30 or so comments down and ask why everyone is being so serious?

Just checking.

I just wanted a chance to use the scungilli pavarotti line...

I don't really care if people want to exclude or be excluded or not be excluded, I've cracked the whole race/sex/class problem. I'm just here to hate on wops.

Heh. I figured. But it's not nice to make light of my peoples illustrious whatchamacallit... I'd be more articulate but someone cut my hands off.

Goddess fuck, there's a lot of peepshit on teh internets.

I don't think anyone on that thread opined that exclusionary threads are encouraged. Many, probably the majority, either didn't like the potentially exclusionary nature of the Team Vag threads or didn't recognize it until you said something. I thought it was great that you brought your feelings about the Team Vag threads to light in that thread; you stimulated a conversation about something others were feeling, too. I don't get where this is coming from now.

No, I'm not latina, and I'll share my views wherever I want.

Wait, Frisbee Girl, do you have something intelligent to contribute to this discussion, or are you just going to drop in with a flippant snark and then leave without saying anything of substance?

Just checking.

*knocks mcgraw and frisbee's heads together*

whassamatta, you stoonatz spaghetti heads, hah?

Can someone, uh, link to the discussed thread for those of us who have no idea what you're talking about?

Sorry, dame, I should have linked to it when I quoted it. Here.

I don't know about you Cookie Pusses but it's too nice out for fighting, I'm off for an early tall boy of budweiser select and then maybe start a myspace page or something. Unless anyone wants to have a quick and furious scuffle about something?

I don't understand all the rancor. My vag is very accomodating, welcoming and friendly.

I don't think anyone on that thread opined that exclusionary threads are encouraged.

You might want to take a closer look, then.

Divine_Wino, I don't know why I keep dragging myself into this mess either (okay, I do know why: fucking Quakers drilled me to get up in arms about all discrimination, even the less obvious or harmful types); but I just got a pair of duelling pistols I'm itching to try. You have a nice long lawn nearby?

I think joe famous will be able to supply an ample counter-weight to any and all team vag posts.

mmmm, Budweiser....

joe famous lost his password. or something.

Mainly I'm used to dropping "u"s but "rancor" just looks weird to me.

*wants to make a comment about jrossi's vag, but can't find the right line between silly and pornographic*

No, mcgraw, it wasn't a snark at all. It was an honest question. It's not that I have a problem with a joke threads, but putting some effort into articulating a well thought out reply, only to be told, "Ha ha!!" can leave one feeling a touch hestitant to contribute in a similar manner in later discussions. I wasn't sure whether this was a serious discussion thread or something more jocular in nature.

I sincerely apologize that you found that remark to be flippant and snarky.

Hugh:

I | duelling. Let's give each other duelling scars like in A Time For Gifts. Mas Macho. I want one on the tip of my nose. Pistols not so much, a piece of the shirt can be carried into the wound and then I would have to operate on myself on Galapagos island while agents of Napoleon creep about.

you pipe duelling?

I pipe alotta things dude. Try'n stop me.

Fine, I'll just discharge these into the wall here.

Done. You know, I was watching Babette's Feast the other night, and the officer who falls in love with the sister had a scar on each cheek, so I said to my friends, "Saber scars! Must be a Habsburg," and it turned out that he was a Swede, but trained I think in Prussia; anyway, to make a long story short I identified his officer class by his duelling scars, which was fun to do and a nice touch by the filmmaker.

Are you ready to rumble?

well, as an old aquantance once said, put that in my hat and smoke it

(1..2..3..4..5..6..7..8..9..10.. deep breath)

Hey everyone! Here is a photo of a rock formation that looks like a bunny kissing a turtle. Hugs & whuffles.

Swedes and Lithuanians rocked that shit as well, it's a Hussar thing, you wouldn't understand.

Team Horsemanship, run them down!

Swedes and Lithuanians rocked that shit as well,

so you and pips are both in on this shit, huh?

I love how the ruling classes who duel with rapiers are all much smaller (as a class) than saber-duellers because tiny holes are more fatal than big cuts.

I'm trying to bring back thumb wrestling: Costumes, being led into the ring to Mad Lion songs, special excercises for your thumb, collectors cards,thumb vitamins, the whole shootin' match.

Triode, that rules!

(Serious post.)

There was a *huge* 100k+ person march in Phoenix, the largest march of any kind of all time for AZ. There's a bunch of good pics up on azcentral.com (mini-registration may be required.) It looked like a whole lot more then 100k. Maybe 300-500k.

I have a friend who owns a ghetto-ass art gallery studio on Grand Ave which was one of the major legs of the march. She's a pale Scot, but her husband is Latino, but he had to work that day and was absent.

She was one of the only galleries open. She says she was overwhelmed by the energy and peacefulness of the march. One of the exhibits she's currently showing is a photo-mural of *current* genocides happening on the planet, and people reacted favorably, supportively and emotionally to it.

She says tens of thousands of people walked through her gallery that day, perhaps more people then she's had through there in the 3 years she's owned the place.

Tacticly speaking, whoever organized that march/protest *knew their shit*. The vast majority of the flags being waved were American flags. The overwhelming majority of the marchers wore white t-shirts as a indication of peace and peacefulness. The message was overwhelmingly clear to any that would care to listen.

Frankly, I'm impressed and astounded and awed. If only anti-war or anti-globalization protesters could get their shit together like that.

Getting personal, if I had to break down my feelings about Latin-American ("America" as in North, Central or South) culture and it's people to a Binary yes/no answer, the answer would have to be an overwhelming yes.

I love Latin culture, it's art, its music, its food and the warmth and strength of its people.

However, I do have many reservations about implicitly and overtly illegal immigration. Many of these reservations have everything to do with many public infrastructure systems such as schools and hospitals being wholly underfunded and overtaxed.

These reservations would vanish with proper funding and/or whole system restructuring.

I also have reservations about *any* immigrant demographic that integrates poorly. I've experienced problems with so-called "reverse racism", which I've personally experienced dozens of times between here in Phoenix and growing up in Los Angeles. (Latinos, never assume that the gringo you're slagging in his presence doesn't understand enough Spanish to know he's being dissed. I might not know enough Spanish to slag back or defend myself, but I can listen. And damnit, it hurts - and that feeling is valid despite injustices caused by others with the same color skin as mine.)

But to be fair, if I were Latin and lived in a world where where the vast majority of asshole caucasians dismissed you out of hand, belittled your labor and underpaid you, took advantage of your immigrant status, and otherwise commited real crimes against humanity, I'd probably be a bit racist too.

This frustration gets reflected in my personal life and foisted by me mostly upon Latinos, because most of the immigrants/emigrants in my life are Latino.

But to be sure, I'd feel the same frustrations about these problems regardless of the geographic origin or race. And they are real problems - often sticky, difficult problems being faced in many communities here in the southwest - and these problems certainly aren't helped by upper middle class yuppie fucktwats or bigoted, fear-centric politicians who don't even make any attempt at all to meet any immigrant class at least half way.

But the Southwest and my birthlands are inherently sculpted past, present and future by Latino culture, and I wouldn't have it any other way. Los Angeles wouldn't be Los Angeles, nor would San Francisco, nor San Diego, nor Santa Ana nor Pheonix or any other of dozens and dozens of large, notable cities and regions.

To be clear, not even including that these lands once belonged to Mexico, these lands and cities were almost completely built upon the backs of Latinos by their hands, by their sweat, and to deny this is even worse then just ingenuine, it's outright slavery.

And despite my frustrations and reservations, I stand in solidarity. I speak up to bigots and don't tolerate hate. I attempt to understand, and often I do.

But I don't know if I have any answers.

As the sleeping giant awakens, I would like to ask for the giant to be careful, wise, loving, passionate and cautious - but I'm not sure if that would be too assuming or ingenuine.

I would like to ask that Latinos take the extra step in reaching out. It's sometimes extremely difficult to understand or penetrate the sometimes insular culture - even though these people are my neighbors, coworkers, friends and even family.

No, ignorant Americans don't really deserve the extra effort. Yes, you have already shared so much. Yes, perhaps 9/10 or even 99/100 times you extend the olive branch you might get hurt or rejected or worse.

But please understand the people that need to understand you the most are probably the laziest, the most bigoted, the most close-minded, and the least likely to change - but the perhaps the most effective and powerful implements of change *if only they could understand*.

But whatever happens, I do ask and beg for peace.