Today I received an email from the person who was the original editor on the book, someone who has left, too. It was a plea for me to turn over the files, since she too has worked on the title, would like to see it come to fruition, &c. This title was delayed forever before this due to staffing issues, the authors being pains, &c., so I do feel bad (to some extent) to be adding to the delay. On the other hand, this is the only bargaining chip I have.

1. Would you turn over the files before you got your cash money?

1a. If your cash money was from two different periods ($900/$700), and you didn't really do all that much work for the second period, but consider it vacation time you were owed anyway, would you turn it over after the first $900, assuming that meant you might never see the $700?

2. Would you reply to the email and say, "Sorry but I gots to get mine," or would you just leave it?

1. Yes. Absolutely. Unless the work in the file is all work that you did on the understanding that it remained your property until you got paid, then you're stealing.

1a. There's a lot to be said about getting your money piecemeal. Get your $900 and then try and get the rest. With the $900.00 consider funding some kind of legal action.

2. No. I'd turn the stolen work back over to the company in question.

As long as you have a legal leg to stand on, I'd say you're in the ethical clear.

Even Shakespeare got to get paid, son.

I think seanyboy is being too harsh when he uses "stolen" to describe the files you have. You have them because of the work you did. just as they have your money.

I'd negotiate with them, ask for the $900 and then let them have the files. I'm not sure why businesses are always the ones that get the benefit of the doubt instead of workers. Why should the company get your charity while they withold your money? Why shouldn't it be the other way around, that you get your money first, and if the business folds, it folds. Are they going to come and help you pack when you get your eviction notice?

Seanyboy, don't take this wrong way, but there's no way I'd waste my $900 on legal action. If I didn't need the money, I'd just let them have it; I *like* my old boss &c. But I have a life to lead, too, and need things that are, shall we say, more critical to life than a book.

Damela
As I said to you before, holding the files till you get paid is completely standard operating procedure in situations like this, it is probably the only way you WILL get paid. You have to make your own decisions about the degree to which you will burn your bridges based on the personalities involved, but you ain't getting dick unless you say pay me first.

From a negotiation standpoint, be upfront (if you haven't already). Cut a deal, say I'll turn em over the second you pay me the first half and you can pay me the second half when you can (once again this probably means never to two days before never).

Otherwise hold out for the full amount and whenever someone emails you to whinge say: Tell them to pay me and I'll cough up the files, you co-dependant baby. Publishing is straight serfdom sometimes. Indie publishing in particular would benefit strongly from a good dose of kids who came up in a normal middle class lifestyle and understand what working for a living means. There are way too many trustafarians who think of it as a "noble" endeavor. Horseshit.

Basically you don't have a moral issue, it's just a social one. Almost no other industry gets away with not paying for essential services the way publishing does.

And to follow the rules:

1) No
2) Yes
3) "I appreciate your concern but I need to get paid for the work I did. I'm willing to work something out. Any help you can give in getting them to make at least a partial payment would go a long way towards getting this resolved and getting the book in print. Thanks."

"Ps. the ghost of Ceasar Chavez is rattling his chains at you."

Dame. OK. Just get the $900 first and fight for the $700 afterwards.

re: "Stolen": I'm sticking with my "stolen" line *with* my original provisos.

If this is this work that you did for them, then you're possibly ok. Both parties can agree to cancel the original contract. You don't have to provide them with something they haven't pay for.

However, if you have stuff of theirs which you did not create, then that is theft. You may as well go into their offices, take all the computer equipment and tell them that they can't have that back either until they pay you.

"Dude. I'm not giving you your car keys back until you pay me back the money you owe me."
That's morally and ethically wrong.

on preview... I agree with seanyboy.

You can't make them do the right thing, but you can choose to do the right thing yourself.

So you guys are also against stealing bread when you're hungry?

Friends,
Once they get the files from Dame they have to send them to the printer, the printer will not roll one press until they have been paid.

So perhaps it is more like this:

"Dude, I am not giving you the car keys to the car that I made repairs on until you pay me the money you owe me."

I am not arguing from an ethical standpoint so much as ethics have been breached already. I am talking about business practices that are as old as the hills.

It's not called show friends!

Damn skippy, Divvie.

Think about it this way, dame: they're trying to rip you off (get your contracted work for free, which is a breach of contract). If they get real lucky, they'll convince you to rip yourself off by giving them the work and accepting no pay.

Ask the other editor who has left whether or not she got paid. And if she didn't, whether she really needed the money.

By holding on to the work, you put yourself in a unique position in which management can't screw you unless you deliver the goods. You aren't holding out for a raise; you're holding out for fair pay -- their end of the bargain. Your side of the contract is ready whenever they pony up.

It's contract work. If I contract to have a porch made, and then refuse to pay for the porch, those contractors are within their rights to remove their porch from my property.

I understand what people are saying about "stuff of yours you did not create." It may be true that keeping any of their manuscripts is theft. If they demand them back, you will have fulfilled your legal (and moral)obligations by returning them their manuscripts in their original form, or if it was a project worked on with a team, with all of your work redacted.

They're trying to get something for nothing, dame. They're trying to rip you off, but since you don't work there, you aren't over the barrel they think you are. Don't cooperate until you're paid in full, or you'll never be paid at all.

Working a contract without accepting pay is devaluing yourself for the benefit of others. There is no moral or ethical good served by fruitless self-abasement. Fight the good fight.

And win.

I'm *for* stealing bread when I'm hungry.
I still think it's wrong, and I'd call it stealing, but I'm for the stealing of the bread when I'm hungry.

Also they have the money. Printers DO NOT PRINT on credit, unless you pay them regularly, then they give you a line of credit that equals to the dollar how far they trust you, usually not very far. I know all too well.

You can't run a publishing house in any real way unless you have somewhere in excess of fifty to one hundred thousand dollars a month in liquid cash or credit lines with a bank. They are chosing to pay someone else instead of Dame, that is a part of the business, but they are not on a moral plane above anyone else.

I think Henry Hill said it best when he said:

"Business bad? Fuck you, pay me. Oh, you had a fire? Fuck you, pay me. Place got hit by lightning huh? Fuck you, pay me."

Call the World Bank and ask them about that. Seanyboy, I agree if you steal, call it stealing. This is not stealing.

Exactly. This situation isn't stealing; if anything's been stolen, it's dame's time and effort. Seriously, you should return the manuscript with no work done, and tell them you'll give them your work when they pay you for it.

I agree with Divine and Hugh:

1. Would you turn over the files before you got your cash money?

You have the files for a legitimate reason. I'm sure you were working on them. Don't turn them over!

1a. If your cash money was from two different periods ($900/$700), and you didn't really do all that much work for the second period, but consider it vacation time you were owed anyway, would you turn it over after the first $900, assuming that meant you might never see the $700?

Ideally I would hold out for the entire $1600. If you are really desperate for money or if you feel generous towards your former employers to the amount of $700, then just ask for $900. One of my friends successfully sued for a few million dollars in breach of contract. He once told me there wasn't any hard or fast rule; just how daring you're feeling (OK he used the word "cajones" though :) ).

2. Would you reply to the email and say, "Sorry but I gots to get mine," or would you just leave it?

Yes. This is business. This other person is asking you to give up $1600 of money you need to make her feel better. So she can get a book published? How about your utility bills, your health insurance and car insurance, your car payments? Those are all more important than her feelings about a book. She is asking you to materially harm yourself in exchange for her emotional benefit. That's so wrong!

Your employer may not ask people to work for free; they may not renege on contracts. You aren't holding their files hostage. You are refraining from further action on their files until they start behaving--think of it that way. I think the people in this thread so far have been male, so let me say that I'm a gal, I know we're taught to get along, but throw the book at these people! You've got bills to pay!

I have to disagree that holding the files is the only way you will get paid.

Having recently been in a similar dilemma with about half the amount owed to me that you're due, I can pass along some advice another fellow offered me from his experiences.

His suggestion to me, was to send them a written notice that they have 5 days to pay you. Included in that notice, the statement that if they DON'T pay you, you will put a lien on their property and will NEVER remove it - they will have to hire an atty to get you to remove the lien, which will cost them much more than simply paying you your due.

No idea what placing a lien would cost in NYC, but here in Raleigh NC it's about $25 down at the courthouse, and you don't need an atty.

That being said, I'd give the files back, myself.

BTW, I asked the guy who told me about the lien strategy if he'd ever had to place a lien. He said, nope - all 3 times he's had to pull that card, they paid up.

Oh, and I never had to threaten the lien card b/c my check came saturday and was deposited today.

*plink plink*

Hugh Janus: We're saying the same thing, but we're coming at it from different angles. The only thing different I'd ask is "Was this actually Contracted work or was it employment work?" Because there's a difference.

Divine_Wino: If any business did that to me, I'd be looking at measures to retrieve that car. Whether I'd paid them or not.

There's a weird ambivalance in the thread. On the one hand Dame is saying "I can't do this, they're my friends, but should I withold work they've said they'd pay me for."

On the other, Divine_Wino is saying. "This is Business, and businesses screw each other in a non-business way all the time, so screw them."

If you're treating this like a business, then you either supply the service and use every means neccessary to recover your money afterwards.

If you're treating this as a friend dealing with another friend then you give them the book and you ask them to pay you. Nicely.

chewatadistance wins.

I don't understand exactly what a lein is. And what sort of property does it affect? Also, frankly, this is on the line between friendship & business, ie, I would like to not totally alienate the people involved but I would also like my money. It seems that holding files hostage is a little nicer than getting legality involved. (Further, I've yet to say, "No money no files" so explicitly. It's more like "Where are the files?" "How's that check coming?" Somehow that seems nicer. Maybe I'm crazy.) Also, my ex-boss's fiance is a lawyer, so legal threats don't scare them so much.

Hah, I can just imagine someone laying on their side all holding their briskly kicked nuts saying "But Dame, you're a girl, you're supposed to get along..."

Seanyboy,
You are right that if it is a question of keeping a friendly relationship then there is something to be said for releasing the files, but that is a kind of one sided friendship. My friends don't withold what they owe me, they're my friends. In this case there are bridges to be burnt, Dame needs to weigh that in the balance. It's not a friendly situation though.

BUT,
I don't want to say you are wrong (for all values of "wrong") about how one conducts business, however it is not the case that you hand over work and then try very hard to recover the money. For an amount as small as $1600 or whatever you basically can't get it out through legal recourses that would cost less than that amount. The debtor knows this and counts on it. Slow paying and not paying contractors is endemic in publishing, it's shameful and exploitative and it's winked at.

"This is Business, and businesses screw each other in a non-business way all the time, so screw them."

Actually I am saying is that in business there is no special dispensation offered or given for people who "don't wanna" pay. You pay for what you contract for or you don't get your shit, for better or for worse. Trust me that if someone orders books from a publisher and doesn't pay for them, that publisher doesn't ship them any more books until they pay the bill.

I'll tell you what would happen where I work. Dame would say I'll give you the files when you pay, my boss would grumble and then pay and then he would say "I like her, she's tough, call her next time we need some work done." It's all a fucking game.

Chewatadistance,
I'm glad that worked for you. I have never once seen it work in the situation we are talking about, but we are rapidly leaving my area of expertise.

Do not treat this as a friend dealing with another friend. This is employment. This is a contract. There is a difference between a friendly fellow employee or a friendly boss and a friend.

You would not know them if it weren't for your employment. Therefore, especially with management, your relationship is business first.

It is a (good) manager's job to establish a friendly working environment in any office or concern. Not only are folks happier working there, but friendliness can be used to manipulate the employee into working harder for less. If the manager doesn't instill this sense in the employee, they forfeit one of the greatest weapons in their arsenal: an employee's guilt at letting down a friend.

They're not friends; they're coworkers. They're not friends; they're your bosses. They're not friends; they're your paymasters. First and foremost.

This is a rare moment when my negativity isn't formed by cynicism, but by training. It's your ex-boss' job to get as much work for as little as possible. Friendliness can be genuine and manipulative at the same time.

Don't think of this as theft. Any of your work they take without pay is theft. If it's illegal for you to hold a manuscript, then by all means return it. But if they aren't going to pay you, return the original, and keep your work.

Devotion to a project is nice, but pro bono work must be arranged up front.

I'm a ladies man, I'm a business man!

I'm not in a good mood about companies not paying money they owe. There are three different companies that owe us, altogether, somewhere in the neighborhood of 8,000 euros right now. Meanwhile, I can't afford to go to the doctor, or the dentist, or the optician... or even think about visiting my family in the U.S. Those people who owe us that money? They don't have these problems. They're doing all that stuff. They're doing it with our money. So fuck 'em, I say.

"C'mon it's art, you can't withhold art from people because you want some money, sellout!"

"I like art too, I'm in the mood for some little green portraits of Ben Franklin."

Funny you mention that. You know, just before I went to get my beard trimmed last week, I looked in the mirror and thought, "Gee, [Hugh], you look like Ulysses S. Grant with that beard."

Of course, at that moment all I could verify was that I didn't look like Abraham Lincoln or Alexander Hamilton.

Totally Grant.

It's more like "Where are the files?" "How's that check coming?"

And that's how I'd keep playing it.

So you guys are also against stealing bread when you're hungry?

It kinda sucks to ask people's advice and then throw this back at them when they give it. Take it or leave it, but don't twist it.

How is that not the case, dano? Clearly seanyboy didn't have trouble with seeing how it applied. And it was a request for clarification.

If you worked on the files they want, well, that is your work. They don't own it until they pay you. That is what I would tell them.

there's no question that _they_ stole from you -- they didn't pay you and they were supposed to, hence they're not entitled to the unpaid work you've done for them.

in the end, it all depends on how much your book is worth to them, more or less than 1600 dollars

keep answering their emails with a nice, "by the way, where's the money you guys owe me?". if the book is worth to them more than 1600 dollars, they'll pay you

dame - I don't know the nuts & bolt of placing a lien on someone, but if I was going to do it, I would have placed a lien on the building out of which he runs the business, which I believe they also own. I'm not sure if you can put a lien on things other than structures - so if they are leasing a space, for example, that particular application wouldn't work. I'm not a lawyer!

In your case, if the lien tack isn't an option, maybe it's best that you *do* hang on to the files until someone who writes the checks actually sends you yours.

Let me ask you this:

Have you invoiced them, and if so how many times have you requested to be paid?
Were you a contractor?
Did you have a written contract?

In my case, I emailed 3 times and called twice, I was a contractor, but had no formal written contract.

I dunno if this helps or not. I could grab a bat and the other chainsaw & tire iron MeCha contingent could come help you out. :)

One more thought for arguments' sake:

Let's say it *is* about friendship as much as it is about business. Isn't the friendship already tainted, at least from your perspective? And if protecting yourself by commanding respect and getting paid is looked upon as "unfriendly", are they really friends?

Also, according to this wikipedia article explaining liens, they can also be applied to car loans and securities.

I'm sayin', yo!

Not sure how the law works in the land of the free, but here in Australia, they already own the work and your getting paid is a separate matter. The same applies to a car that has been repaired - the mechanic cannot hold your car if you refuse to pay. Not legally, anyway - this kind of thing happens all the time and you have every moral right to expect to be paid for your work, so hold that stuff until you do.

Depending on the legal structure of the company, you may be able to sue both the company and its directors, either jointly or severally - sometimes the threat of legal action against them personally can work wonders.

Anyway, do you really want to be that close with people who get you to do work for them, then refuse to pay you? How sure are you that they didn't know in advance that they wouldn't be able to pay you?

In many states you can hold a car that you have done work on, even if the car is much more valuable. This is called a Mechanic's lien. So it is different from Australia. In some ways this situation sounds similar, although my understanding is that you can return the files without the value you have added to them?

Do NOT go around filing liens in the courthouse without getting advice from an attorney. Abuse of process is a crime and you probably don't know what you're doing in this department.