they?

*stares questionably at the soon to be minced sausage*

"you can always see it coming, but you can never stop it."

*curls up in fetal position*

well now you make miko all feotal
what's this about?
i don't know where to fry eggs or make pancakes

Miko: I for one am sucking on my thumb, wishing I had a big tub of ice cream.

And I'm not sure whether I should be listening to angry death metal, J-Pop, or melancholy ballads, or maybe just the roar of the city outside. It all just feels terrible.

(I only went fetal because it's the rules of the MeCha drinking game. Though it does activate our own memories of hurt when someone else starts hurting).

Whatever happened, NA, I'm really sorry. Wish I had words to make it feel better.

Thanks Miko. No, it's mostly in my head -- I tend to construct unrealistic expectations too early on, and then when things don't work out, I get hurt. No one in their right mind could say that she's done anything wrong.

Incidentally, what are the rules of the drinking game?

what a buzz kill
i may as well sober up now

Pfft. I'm lucky I don't have any liquor in the house right now. I'd drink until I blacked out, woke up, and drank enough to black out again, if I had anything.

did i miss this story or are you just withholding?

i won't pry
i'm just gonna hang out by the pu pu platter

Bummer.

*hugs the NucleophilicAttack*

awww.

you can't avoid the sadness, but later, in the long run, you always realize it wasn't worth it and you're better off withoutwhat you thought the person was.

you need cats or a dog, if you don't have them. they're your BESTEST friends and they always know and care when you're sad.

once you're over the inital SadShock, maybe you can lose yourself for a while in a couple (few) movies?

Seriously, though, drinking game?

Thanks Frisbee girl and shane. :-) *hug*. Movies are a great suggestion too.

And yes, I need a doggie. I'd like a lab, I think. But it's all about really taking the time and money to care for one's pet -- it's a pretty big commitment.

ethylene: the relevant bits are already there. Suffice it to say that I like her a great deal more than I think she likes me; and that I tend to expect exclusivity waaaaaaaaay too early by any standards.

Yeah, I do that too, NA. You fall so in love with all the potential.

Space Coyote: This thread is the Metachat drinking game.

fools and drunks march better on a full stomach
so i'm breaking out the brunchables

Nope, if I ate right now I'd upchuck all over. (This is the "fool" category, to clarify unnecessarily.)

Miko: I guess one either does it this way, or decides to be a cynical bastard throughout life and never let one's guard down. I still think this way is better, but it's rough sometimes.

but it's wafer thin
and better to learn than be a fool
luck and all

I don't know, NA, is there really a time that's too early to want exclusivity? I'm a serial monogamist at heart and by nature. It's confusing for me to be a casual dater and it shows. I've tried non-exclusivity and it must be a talent I lack as someone or everyone always, always, always gets hurt. No bueno. So as unpopular as it is, it's all or nothing with me, though the 'nothing' is often a warm and genuine friendship.

I realize it doesn't take the hurt away, but being aware of what you want and being honest enough with yourself to admit it is an excellent thing.

I agree with Frisbee Girl. Once you know about yourself that 'casual dating' isn't a thing you like to do, you can let people know that right up front and avoid the confusing and painful 'what's-going-on-here' dance.

I wouldn't say the other people are cynical or anything. They just have a different approach to relationships, one that features perhaps a healthy detachment. I envy this sometimes.

Wow Frisbee Girl -- that was really insightful. Thanks a bunch. It's also good to know that others also believe in monogamy even as part of dating. I mean, I'm very much a live-and-let-live kind of guy, so I have no problem with other people having different ways of doing things, either. It doesn't work for me however -- I've had similar experiences as you, I suspect.

And yeah, I wish I had the healthy detachment. But then how does one know when to stop holding back and really go for it with someone?

The other part of my philosophy is that to live without daring to feel, or being able to feel, is almost not to live at all... yet another reason why I am the way I am, I guess.

dya mind if i ask how old you are?

Somewhere in the 20s.

there's a yawning chasm between 21 and 29

for some
especially if you're a boy

On the latter point, suffice it to say that the relationship, lack thereof, or whatever, is not about lesbians. Or the transgendered.

wow. does that somewhow make it easier?
suddenly it got a whole lot more complex

Hmm? I mean, it's a normal boy loves girl kind of thing.

i do not judge. i do not know the details.
i'll take your word for the normal thing.

Amuse thyself with sundry webstuff and things.

Oh jeez, I'm reading all these AskMe threads in human relations...

NA, to live without daring to feel, or being able to feel, is to not live at all. Doing that is to turn oneself off to something both vital and profound in life and the terrible beauty of the human condition. Getting bruised and bumped along the way is part of the process. Few people get it right the first time, but I do believe that most people figure it out in time.

Unlike the dentist who swears that this won't hurt a bit, I'll be honest and say it's going to suck sometimes (like now), maybe even in neon capitals. BUT other times, later, after you've dusted yourself off and gotten on with getting on, it's not going to suck so much. I've also heard tell from some esteemed sources that the suckiness now makes the sweet even sweeter later.

So.

Two thoughts:

Hope springs eternal.

Barn's burnt down. Now I can see the moon. -Masahide

Oh jeez, I'm reading all these AskMe threads in human relations...

Oh, good Lord, don't do that!

Go to a movie! Whatever! Anything but that.

Seriously: DO NOT READ ASKMETA RELATIONSHIP THREADS. I found over time that the answers to questions on certain topics made me feel bad about myself, so I have cut myself off from those questions. For reals- it's a BAD idea to read them right now.

Thanks for the advice TPS & Miko -- no relationship threads for me then. Maybe I just need to watch something mindless like a zombie flick or something. :P Pity I already have 28 Days Later nearly memorized, heh.

Frisbee Girl: wow, thanks for the insights. Yeah, I also still hold out hope that somehow, things will one day work out just right. May I never grow too cynical and bitter. =)

Yeah, I also still hold out hope that somehow, things will one day work out just right. May I never grow too cynical and bitter. =)

Amen, amen.

: ( sorry Nuc!

It's okay, small_ruminant. Thanks for all your support everyone -- I'm sure it will be better soon...

So you're really not going to give us nosy folks all the dirty details?

I mean, other than the person's name, I've basically told everything useful. But if you must know: I'm the kind of person for whom the emotional and the spiritual matter a great deal more than the physical -- so I have interesting definitions of what I think exclusivity means.

What do you think exclusively means? I'm intrigued.

Well, no it's not that interesting of a definition, I guess.

It's slightly unconventional for a guy, in that I care less about the physical than most. I mean, sure I would be upset if I were in a serious relationship with someone and they were sleeping around, but say they were very very drunk, and didn't know better: I'd only be mildly upset. I mean, shit happens. As long as there's no baby and no diseases, it's like "meh."

But if they were fully sober, and sweet-talking someone else, that would be very upsetting. To me giving of oneself emotionally is far more significant. It devalues the emotional and spiritual connection we (hypothetically) would have. To me, the emotional connection, bond, and intimacy is the meat of the relationship -- sex per se by contrast is almost just a bonus.

So ... yeah. That's my take on exclusivity.

I'm headed out the door for a bit, but NA, I totally hear you.

it's mostly in my head -- I tend to construct unrealistic expectations too early on, and then when things don't work out, I get hurt.

NA, I totally hear you on this, too -- it was pretty much my relationship MO for years. This kind of mental storytelling/fantasizing/projection becomes habitual (as you have discovered), even though it inevitably leads to disappointment. Finally I got tired of it: instead of saying "oh, this is just how I am, I'm just intensely emotional and romantic" (which I did for a long time), I decided I wanted to figure out how to relate to people more realisitically -- to stay present, basically, instead of dashing off in my head (as initially pleasureable as it was!) to some fictionalized alternate reality or storybook future.

I think the key is figuring out why you construct those unrealistic expecations so early on. For me, the reluctance to simply stay present to get to know someone (and to allow them to know me) in a fully clear-eyed way was a fear of seeing others (and being seen) as imperfect. I wanted to create a vision of myself that was just as dazzling as the vision of the other person, so that we could therefore have a dazzling relationship together that would somehow solve (or at least leave behind) all the mundane imperfections I experienced in my life and, more deeply, the imperfections I perceived within myself. In other words, if the other person was so perfect and wonderful and amazing and we were going to be so happy together, then it meant that I was all right after all -- I must not be fucked up/unattractive/etc. if such a perfect person loves me, right?

I wanted another person to "fix" what I believed needing fixing in my life and within myself, and it was this need/hope that was being expressed in the unrealistic expectations I'd construct. But this was just a fantasy, which -- by definition -- can't ever be real. So I had a two-fold task ahead of me: to work on embracing myself in a much more realistic and loving way, and to learn very concrete skills in terms of how to interact with others (not just boyfriend-types but also friends and others in general) based more on realistic assessments of their actions, statements, etc.

In short: I had to get to know (and accept) myself a lot better, and learn how to know (and accept) others for who they really are. And a funny thing happened: in bringing my sense of self-worth up, I no longer had to inflate the worth of the people around me. It's as if I thought of myself on the low end of some hypothetical scale, and so could only be balanced out by someone at the high end. But once I leared that I'm fine as I am, and can be fine seeing people as they are, the idea of having to balance out the scale just... dissolved. And instead of losing romance in my life (which I think I had feared, in some way), I've found just the opposite -- that it's infinitely more romantic to be in a relationship in which I can love someone, and be loved in return, based on who we really are, warts and all.

Sorry for the long-winded post... don't know if any of this will ring a bell for you, but if it does I hope it's helpful.

oh, and I meant to add: when you say "I guess one either does it this way, or decides to be a cynical bastard throughout life and never let one's guard down," I'm suggesting that there's at least a third option, in which cynicism doesn't have to enter into the picture at all.

scody: thank you -- your post was very incredibly insightful, and frankly, I found a lot of myself in there. My hat is off to you for such an incisive analysis.

But how does one come to learn to better accept oneself and others as the imperfect creatures we all really are?

Also, I fully realize that we all have our faults, and that (for example) in all long-lasting relationships, the imperfections are laid bare for both parties to see. Clearly, people who stay married for decades don't float off into la-la and forever. But does this imply that the initial stages of "infatuation" that some relationships pass through is juvenile or unhealthy? (although I think the terms are a bit strong here...)

Wow. This is a good place for me to say what a huge fan I am of all scody's relationship posts. She's good at this stuff. Applause!

As to infatuation: personally, I feel it's fun, but not to be trusted. It is illusive.

But how does one come to learn to better accept oneself and others as the imperfect creatures we all really are?

For me, there's a short answer for what has been a long (and rewarding) process: long-term therapy, yoga, and (more recently) meditation and buddhism. All of those factors have had an incredible and positive impact for me in terms of learning how to be comfortable with myself and accepting of others, I think because compassion is really at the center of each of them.

But does this imply that the initial stages of "infatuation" that some relationships pass through is juvenile or unhealthy?

I don't think that stage is necessarily juvenile or unhealthy -- I think what's juvenile or unhealthy is mistaking (as I did) what is indeed just a preliminary stage as the be-all, end-all of what love is. In other words, infatuation is simply a first step in the process -- it's not (to mix metaphors) the whole enchilada itself. Attempting to make it the whole enchilada is where I'd always get into trouble. It's fantastic to be giddy about someone; it's folly to think that being giddy about someone means they're your soulmate and you're going to spend the rest of your life with them.

"Romance [i.e., the first stage in a romantic relationship] is an exuberant and valuable experience to the extent that we can enjoy it without becoming addicted to it. Romance...is a bridge to a more mature commitment. But we should not be surprised that it does not last. It is a phase that builds a bond, but it is not a mature bond in itself.... This falling in love contrasts with rising in love with conscious choice, sane fondness, intact boundaries, and ruthless clarity. We were taught that some enchanted evening we would feel fascination and fall head over heels for someone special. But that kind of reaction is actually a signal from the needy child withiin, telling us what we need to work on, not directing us to our rescuer.... But we can also feel the excitement of romance without deluding ourselves or setting ourselves up for disappointment. How do we tell the difference? Healthy relationships lead to interdependence and unhealthy ones lead to dependence or domination. The electricity of the false takes the form of a shock. The electricity of the true is a steady current. A shock leaves us depleted. A current keeps moving through us."
-- David Richo, How to Be An Adult in Relationships

I stumbled upon Richo's book about six months ago and have been recommending it steadily ever since -- it's the sanest, most compassionate (and also, in many ways, most provocative) approach I've come across in looking at relationships. I only wish I'd found it years ago, but I'm glad I found it when I did.

(On preview: aw, thanks Miko!)

Thanks scody -- I just ordered the book from Amazon. Clearly there is a lot of work ahead for me; I hope I've the fortitude to get through it all...

I bet you do, dude- you've got SNAKES on your motherfuckin' CHEST, for goodness sakes.

Meanwhile, this is one relationship advice thread I actually find uplifting and encouraging. I know I've got work to do on myself, and have been taking some steps lately to do so. Yaaaay for knowing Metachat is behind me. ::pats everyone on the back::

NA

But how does one come to learn to better accept oneself and others as the imperfect creatures we all really are?

scody

For me, there's a short answer for what has been a long (and rewarding) process: long-term therapy, yoga, and (more recently) meditation and buddhism.

I second faith as part of the answer. I think that some belief system, not necessarily religious, that includes you having faith that you and others are acceptable despite being imperfect, is really necessary. Because proof doesn't really exist either way. We must decide to believe one way or another.

scody: Great advice!

Fris: I'm a serial monogamist too! I never thought that it wasn't just me! :)

((NucleophilicAttack)) Feel better!

On preview: ((TPS)) ((Everybody)) :)

Awwww. =) Thx halonine and TPS!

Why do girls hurt us? Because they can.

late reporting back, but wanted to say NA, I hope you like the book! There's a lot of food for thought in there -- it's definitely not a quick self-help/how-to book (despite the title); in some ways it's almost a philosophical/spiritual approach to manifesting love in all aspects of our lives. But don't let that intimidate you -- it's not so much fortitude you'll need to get through it as much as an open heart, which clearly you've got already. :)

Thanks scody! :-) I think it should be getting here today, if the tracking info is correct. Looking foward to reading it.

Incidentally, with The Girl(tm), everything turned out well after all. Consider me a very happy camper. :-)