(true story. i just sent this to albertson's corporate HQ.)

I've practically grown up in Albertson's, in Southern California. I've shopped there for decades. I remember going there for fresh baked treats as a toddler. Later, I bought lunches and snacks there as a student. And even later, shopped there for years as an adult.

And I've shopped at the indicated Mesa store consistently for over a year.

This Saturday night on March 25th, 2006, my girlfriend and I were treated terribly by a woman named "Beth Thomas" who claimed to be a manager at store number 942.

The situation is complicated, but allow me to attempt to explain it.

My girlfriend and I already had a terrible day fraught with problems.

After this long, frustrating day filled with stress and anxiety, I was famished but just about unable to eat from said stress.

My girlfriend was experiencing emotional difficulties due to said stress, and a severe lack of blood sugar.

I'd suddenly decided what it was I wanted to eat. A couple of grilled cheese sandwiches and a steaming bowl of tomato soup.

My girlfriend thought that sounded great, and she also wanted a bottle of wine.

Fine. So, we slog through the store, also picking up the things we'd also need for the coming work week. The amount we planned on spending on this particular trip approached $100. Besides the items for our grilled cheese and tomato soup dinner, and besides the single bottle of red wine, we were picking up sandwich supplies, snacks and a number of other items.

We check out, like normal. We get asked for ID for the wine. Ok, fine, whatever. I'm 32, she's 30.

Beth Thomas then refuses to sell us the wine because my out of state ID is expired. That's somewhat understandable, but as I understand it, not state law which she insisted it is. I'm clearly of age, my ID is valid for age verification as my birthdate hasn't mysteriously changed. Still, ok, whatever. For Pete's sake, I've got an unopened bottle of Vodka at home and Martini fixings - purchased with my expired ID at *your store* nonetheless. If I simply wanted to abuse alcohol and get wasted, that's easily accomplished. Though we're both clearly of age, that we can deal with, it's not that big of a deal. It's just a bottle of wine.

However, my stressed out girlfriend at that point turns and says to me, "What. The. Fuck?". To me, mind. Not to the cashier, but to myself and myself alone, in an expression of absolute dismay that the day could possibly get any worse. There were no children present. We were the last in line as Beth was closing her stand. There were no other patrons present in our queue.

It was at this point that Beth Thomas decides to arbitrarily refuse us service and refused to allow us to buy our non-alcoholic food items. She immediately begins unchecking our items. Over a single word not even uttered to her or directed to her.

This is *not* fine and good. This is terrible, and possibly even illegal. And entirely inexcusable in an adult, modern world. No where in the store in plain, visible sight does it say in a clearly marked signage "We reserve the right to refuse service", nor does it say anywhere that profanity - however crude - is verboten.

We were hungry. Tired. Sick from stress. We just wanted to go home to our apartment literally across the street, eat a simple, hearty, comforting dinner and go to bed. With or without a simple bottle of healthy red wine. We just wanted our food. Which we were refused. Over a single word. Uttered to myself by my girlfriend from the depths of an incredible amount of stress and frustration.

My girlfriend left the store in tears. I wanted to throw up, from stress, from not eating all day, from the sheer idiocy of the whole thing.

Pissed off, confused, befuddled and incredibly bothered, we wandered, driving around until we came to a Fry's store.

Where we shopped, bought exactly the same items - the exact same items we already schlepped for an hour for around *your* store for - and paid about 30% less then we would have if we had bought our groceries at store #942.

In the checkout line we related our sad tale of woe and misery to the cashier and bagger, upon which they were incredulous and amused. They laughed at such ridiculousness. They were friendly, understanding, and helpful, and moreover, caring. They even allowed us to say the word "fuck" as a cathartic exercise, which was much appreciated and welcome relief.

Relief that the whole world has yet to go entirely mad with moral righteousness and political correctness.

We're aware and investigating the legality of Beth Thomas' actions, and we've been informed it may be an issue for the Labor Board.

Your response on this matter - and it's resolution - is greatly appreciated.

WHAT.
THE.
FUCK.
BETH?


(Sorry, I had to.)

Sounds like you had a shitty day, loq, and I'm always sorry to hear that. Missed you on IRC last night/this morning.

Has I been less tired, less stressed, and more properly fed, I would have walked out of that shithole of a fucking store uttering the most incredible stream of creative profanity I've ever uttered at the top of my lungs.

The anti-authoritarian juvenile in me really wants to go back and do it anyway.

"Can you fucking believe this shit? Motherfucking Pop-tarts are on fucking sale! Just look at those gorgeous fucking bananas! I think I'm going to get me a motherfucking loaf of French fucking bread! Holy fucking shit! Apples! Motherfucking apples, pounds of them! Look at how shiny and red those fuckers are! I bet those motherfuckers are fucking tasty fucking apples! Holy mother of fuck! Are you fucking telling me that if I have a fucking store discount card I can get not one, but two whole fucking bottles of PepsiCo brand soda for a fucking dollar? Does that shit include Mountain Dew? That's fucking unbelievable! How do you do it? I don't understand it. Fuck Snuggles. Oh, my fucking God I love me some garlic bread. And even the fucking Kettle Chips are on sale! That's some good shit, those Kettle Chips, seriously good fucking shit. I love that shit! So fucking tasty. I could eat those fucking chips all fucking day long, y'know that? I really like those fucking chips. 12 grain whole fucking wheat bread! Buy one, get another one of those cocksuckers free! No, you can't be fucking serious. Motherfucking garlic, 5 heads for a buck? Look at that shit! Spotless. I bet you they flew that shit in straight from fucking Gilroy on a motherfucking private jet in specialized velvet lined fucking garlic flight cases, man. Motherfucking Gilroy, California. God, I fucking love California. I bet you they don't care if you say "fuck" in fucking Gilroy. I love garlic, that shit's so good and so fucking good for you! Aw, fuck, I dropped my fucking wallet. Can you please hand it to me? It's the one that says "Bad Motherfucker" on it. No, there's no motherfucking snakes on it, you fuckhead, just hand me my fucking wallet. It won't bite. Yes, I'm aware it says "Bad Motherfucker" on it. I just fucking told you that, didn't I? What the fuck? Shit, like I got time to dick around with this particularly specious kind of bullshit. Fuck you. Fuck you very much, and fuck the centipedes you've got crammed into your fuckless desert of a sandtwat, too."

knave: Yeah, unfortunately I'm going to have to avoid IRC as much as possible for a while, as I've got packing and moving to do ASAP. I've still got to find an apartment, even. The place I *really* wanted was run by some guy that was, I dunno, confused or something, but certainly anal. I didn't get it. Fuck.

This whole month has been one hell of a motherfucker. I'm not too keen on astrology, but this mercury retrograde shit is really feeling like a +8 shark-tooth barbed demon cock of hellacious assfucking.

At least I still like my job.

Jeez man... That blows. I'm moving too, I should be packing and such, but I'm procrastinating like a mofo. Forget astrology. You win some, you lose some... in the mean time, hit me on IM or IRC any time you want to vent.

but this mercury retrograde shit is really feeling like a +8 shark-tooth barbed demon cock of hellacious assfucking.

Dude, if you wrote the horoscopes I might actually read them.

My buddy and I were the only people working at a small retail store when a man came in. I don't remember which one of us it was, but one of us walked toward the front of the store and asked if he needed any help finding anything, as we were supposed to. He stops and starts yelling at us asking if we worked at the carnival and were barkers who shout at passing potential customers.

We both look at each other and shrug and leave him alone. But when he comes up to the counter to finish his purchase, he feels the need to start expressing his displeasure that someone asked him if he needed any help.

So my buddy was the one ringing up the sale and he just stopped and said, never mind, we're not going to sell that stuff to you. Goodbye.

I thought it was like the coolest thing ever. I don't know what this has to say about your experience, but I seriously doubt she was under any legal obligation to sell to you. Probably whoever supervises her would reprimand her, but not necessarily.

When I managed the support dept. of a regional ISP in Austin, there was one guy who'd call and without fail start being abusive to whoever had called. When I was first told about this, because he'd just called, he'd already hung up. But other people came and told me their experience with this guy. I told them to come get me next time he calls. So the next time he calls, I tell him that it's our job to help him with his problems, and we're happy to do so, and we also understand how frustrating having computer problems can be. But, I said, I didn't hire anyone telling them that it was in their job description that they had to be yelled at, and cursed at, by a customer. If he acts that way, I said, we simply won't talk to him. This blew his mind.

My boss, the owner of the company, didn't care a bit when I told him about it. (Because I felt that although I had the authority to make that kind of decision, I should mention it to him.) He was satisifed that this guy was abusive and that we were now on a no-tolerance for him being abusive.

If I had been that woman's boss, I'd have told her that your girlfriend cursed to you, not her; and that I understand that using the word "fuck" in public is still extremely rude, according to how many people see things; but that you guys were stressed also, being denied service over what seemed to you to be a stupid technicality. I'd have asked her, and you, to be understanding. In fact, assuming that there's a law preventing someone being sold alcohol with an out-of-state ID—which well might be the case—then I also would have refused you, very apologetically and then I'd would ask if there's anything in my power to do that could be helpful. If you said you had the proper ID at home, I would put your stuff aside and wait for you to come back and then open a register, if necessary, to get you in and out quickly.

I'm an introvert and sometimes I think I have more than a bit of whatever Asperger's and that characteristic is. I had to learn how to deal with customers. But the trick of it is to always have empathy, never dehumanize, understand that there are some implicit mutual obligations between me and them. I had to learn that when I was about 20 and found myself waiting tables. And I also found that only a portion of the people who wait tables are actually competent with regard to their people skills, and an even fewer number of people in retail and the like. This was a woman who was a minor manager at a grocery store. She quite likely had had at least someone just that day, maybe just before you were there, that was truly abusive. I don't know. But the bottom line is that she was almost certainly powerless to neglect those sorts of rules where the stakes are actually criminal and civil both. Maybe she particularly finds the word "fuck" offensive. Maybe how she felt about it was that your girlfriend saying it to you was actually worse than if your gf had said it to her. Why? Because that may reinforce her sense that she's not actually a person to you guys, she's not there, she's just a thing expected to function for your benefit, to be ignored. I don't know.

I do know that Albertson's, the corporation, is unlikely to beg your forgiveness because you've ranted on the internet.

On preview: so you think that going out of your way to really offend her is an appropriate response to the situation?

loq, you have my sympathies...I hate those days where everything conspires against you and you're ground down to the most simple of needs and you can't even get them fulfilled for one stupid reason or another. Beth may not know WTF is a standard response in the face of absurdity for many people, just as she may not have had any idea of the kind of stress you two had been through. It's unfortunate. It does sound like you all got joyful, empathetic service elsewhere which is good news.

I, too, would read those horoscopes.

On preview: so you think that going out of your way to really offend her is an appropriate response to the situation?

Of course not. But sometimes it's damn satisfying, however puerile.

As someone who does tech support for a living and have been doing it for years, I've been on the other side of the fence many times. While I'm not typical, I try to just be amused by it. It's really not worth letting it get to you.

While my GF chose a probably inappropriate word, the cashier also chose to be offended by a mere word. Any power that that word has to offend her is in her own mind, not ours. That's the part that bothers me.

The "offensiveness" of the word "fuck" is a relatively recent invention of the FCC. It hasn't been as supposedly, patently offensive for hundreds of years. A hundred, maybe, at the most.

The alcohol thing, yeah, that's fine. If she can't sell, she can't sell. That wasn't the problem. I'm not going to make a huge stink about that. We were perfectly willing to not purchase the alcohol. The important thing was the food.

But that doesn't mean she has to refuse our grocery purchases. And there are specific laws for grocery and food service stores in AZ and other Western US states - I'm not able to cite at the moment - that deal with the rules for refusing service. Having a clearly displayed sign stating the right to refuse service is one of those rules. We've already discussed this with a friend who is a student of law and though it's a gray area, it's looking more like the law is on our side regarding the non-alcoholic food purchase and the refusal of service.

(Tangentially, it's also illegal for any establishment to refuse someone a glass of water in Arizona for any reason.)

I've dealt with this woman before. Mesa, AZ is a hardcore Mormon town. I'm pretty sure she's Mormon/LDS, and I'm pretty sure - via my radar-like (but not infalliable) skills of intuition - that she's probably the sort of Mormon that convinced me that I wanted to get the hell away from that church way back when I was a little kid. (Yeah, parts of my family are mormon.)

I've seen her be judgemental and rude to customers making alcohol purchases, and she's been that way to me when I've made alcohol purchases there previously, even though she never even asked for my ID. Her demeanor is entirely different when there's alcohol on the checkout belt, and entirely different then the rest of the staff in the store.

I so want out of this particular city and jurisdiction. The city council is Mormon-controlled, and one of the serious personal irritants about it for me is that they don't even let buses run through the city after 10:30 PM or so on weekends, and none on Sunday.

And it's not a particularly nice city. It's basically a slum of low income apartments, WalMarts, and little else. And one heck of an active, overzealous Police force.

So. I don't want her to get fired. I don't want money or discount coupons for Albertson's - I'm honestly done there. I want an apology from her, preferably directly to my pissed off, stressed out and self-digesting stomach.

If I had acted in such an arbitrary manner in my duties at my help desk, I would fully expect to get my ass cussed out for being a prick. The only times I've ever had users or clients cussing at me while on the job was when they came to me already pissed off and swearing a blue streak. Invariably they've always left with an apology and a thank you, with their problems solved and my duties rendered. Again, I'm probably not typical, and I'm not trying to say I'm a saint or a superhero, but they're just words. The decision to take it personally was hers.

It's a ton of work doing grocery shopping. I don't have a whole lot of time to do it twice. It was an inordinate consequence for a single word not even directed at her. It's specious, moralistic horseshit that has no place in a legal business transaction. We weren't rude or angry with her or at her - until she decided to not sell us our food, and then it was short and sweet. "Well, fuck!" *storms out*

they don't even let buses run through the city after 10:30 PM or so on weekends, and none on Sunday.

Correction: weekends=weekday. I think the cutoff might even be 10PM.

The rest of the Phoenix Metro bus system runs until 12am or beyond, day in and day out, including Sundays.

Every day I come home from my second shift job, there's somewhere between 3 and 12 people per bus that have to *walk* from where the bus line ends in Tempe to points eastward in Mesa. One guy I talk to has to walk 5+ miles. Every day. After work. Because Mesa doesn't want buses bringing in "undesirables" into their city after hours.

(there may be other errors in my last post, as well. I'm exhausted, and accidently hit post before I was quite done checking.)

(Done ranting, considers a career change to writing profane horoscopes)

the cashier also chose to be offended by a mere word.

Chose to be offended? That's not how offense works.

(Though of course I sympathize with you about the situation generally.)

My sympathies loq. Really.
But perhaps Beth Thomas had had a hard day too.
& as angry as you are, there's little reason to resort to lawyers.

that's just my 2p.

It's interesting how this and the smedleyman discussion in meta parallel each other.

Damn loq,

Sorry to hear that. I imagine that we've all had our versions of Beth Thomas in one way or another; I just cannot help but chuckle that if the ID is expired, then, you might be *older* than what is on there? And, like you said, who is gonna get thrashed on red wine (sure wish I was in CA still where I can buy hard booze up 'til 0200 in the grocery store)?

Grilled cheese sandos on me if we ever meet :D

It's always been a puzzle to me that the very common, almost universal, hypocrisy involving giving/taking offense is not seen as an hypocrisy by many because they deny that there's any equivalancy between what they say to others and what others say to them. After all, if by some objective measurement a supposed "offensive" comment truly is, and by the same measurement another is not, then where is the hypocrisy if they condemn one and excuse the other, regardless of who said it and to whom it was directed?

And an aspect of this which really puzzles me is that—while not a universal relationship by any means—those who take this absolutist position in this and similar matters are often those who are relativistic in general. While I, someone who is for practical purposes an absolutist (though theoretically quite strongly a relativist) claim hypocrisy because of what seems to me to be an inherently relativistic context.

This is probably the largest intellectual gulf between me and another kind of person. On an occasion when I was arguing for the rational and moral necessity of always—always—seriously considering the possibility that one might be wrong, my rhetorical opponent said, simply, "Why do I need to consider the possibility that I'm wrong when I know I am right?"

loquacious, if you're done ranting, can I just a bit?

This is last week. A tooth cracks. My monitor dies so hard it blows a fuse. My DSL goes out.

I call Verizon. Its a billing issue they say. What is my current balance? Zero they say. WTF?

Apparently, when I received an overdue notice a month ago, for $203.88, I had immediately called and paid $204.

The discontinue service order is only automatically removed if you pay the *exact* amount of the bill. I had overpaid by twelve cents.

The $35 penalty would be on my next bill.

The profane tirade welled up inside me, and I called to vent, to be told "nothing can be done about this," and "I'm sorry you feel that way, sir, goodbye."

Fortunately, there are enough phone reps that every time I called I got a different one, so I just kept calling, and trying again. Each time I slightly modified my approach. Finally on about the 8th or 9th call, maybe the 5th hour on the phone, I find someone willing to actually help.

It probably helped that I had used up all my iron-clad outrage by then, and that I must have sounded sufficiently beaten down.

Oh, and the first thing I then did was make a grilled cheese sandwich.

StickyCarpet: wow. That was insanely stupid. I'm surprised you had to escalate.

They wanted to fine you for giving them 18 cents?

* falls over *

Good call on the cheese sandwich.

I'm sorry you and your girl are having such a rough time, loq.

*cooks everyone grilled cheese sammiches*

That's somewhat understandable, but as I understand it, not state law which she insisted it is. I'm clearly of age, my ID is valid for age verification as my birthdate hasn't mysteriously changed.

My sympathies loq but FYI an expired ID isn't valid for anything. One of the reasons IDs are dated is to reduce a lost or stolen ID's effective lifetime. I'm not saying you stole it or you look underage but playing by the book the clerk can't accept an expired ID.

Hah!

I once had a postal employee refuse me service, and I didn't even drop the f bomb-or use any other foul language, for that matter. I WAS remailing an item that was correctly addressed yet returned. He wanted to insist it would be returned again (it wasn't, btw) and also that I'd have to pay again,which I did-that part, no complaint.

I, being the bipolar hardhead I am, simply kept getting back into line. I'd get to him, he'd refuse, I'd get back into line again. (Leaving was not an option as I was on foot and it was too far to walk to another PO, I was mailing something for a friend, and he was the only one at the counter.)

He at one point threatened to call the cops. I said," Well, I wish you would. Maybe they would give me a ride to another post office."

Finally everyone else was gone. He then took my package and mailed it, with a sheepish look.

I guess he'd forgotten his meds that day too. ;-)

Never underestimate the power of persistence!

loq, I think you did the right thing in writing the letter. I am glad you did not leave with a string of profanity. That would not have been good. I do believe she should suffer for her poor behavior and the letter may lead to that. If you can't do your job with grace and competence you should pay a price.

Loquacious, she sounds like a royal pain. I've done a LOT of customer service, and the point of the transaction is that the store gets the money, the customer gets the stuff, with as little fuss as possible. If you were doing too much swearing in the store, the right thing is to politely ask you to stop. Expired license showing you well over the age? Give me a break. But you were prepared to leave without the wine. And to refuse to sell you groceries is really aggressive.

Write to Albertsons. You are unlikely to get a sincere apology from her, but it will still make you feel better. If they send you coupons, give then to a food bank.

Then take a deep breath. Visualize saying to her "My invisible Internet friends Do. Not. Like. You." and laugh. Hone it into a great story. The story of Beth, Queen of Albertsons 942, Scourge of Wine Buyers, Meanest of the Mean, She Who Cannot Abide Swearing. Write her a profane Horoscope.

For that matter, you should write horoscopes for all of us. Very profane. Helpdesk here. too. {waves}