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21 February 2006

A question for the Gay & Bi Mechas: →[More:] I'll preface this by syaing that I realize labels are stupid, but I'm trying to figure out something.

As most of you know, I'm recently single. I've also recently mentioned some experiences of mine. So let me be frank.

All my porn is straight. When I walk down the street, it's boobies and female asses that turn my head, but every so often a guy will get my motor racing, and I've occasionaly fantasized about certain male celebrities. And I had a few naked groping on the couch with male friends in my teens. When I was in my twenties, a casual acquaintance asked me out on a date. He looked kinda like Jim Morrison in this pic but in a leather jacket and a Soundgarden t-shirt. I was living at home at the time and dating women was awkward enough, so I said no, even though I didn't want to. I ran into hm later at a punk show and invited him to come to a party I was going to later, but he was with somebody.

Now being single..well, long story short I went to well known 'bear bar' (femme/metro guys hold no appeal for me, although they're cool to hang with) and spent awhile making out and stuff with a guy I met. I liked it.

Since then I've discussed this with a few people and been told that I'm 'bisexual' 'bicurious' 'a horny straight guy,' and 'getting something out of my system.'

I'm asking for a depth charge here. Which is it?
post by: jonmc at: 19:44 | 97 comments
Also, this is not 'advertising' and I realize my anxiety over this may be lingering catholic guilt and leftover internalized homophobia, but I trust you guys for honest answers.
posted by jonmc 21 February | 19:45
Well, I'm not gay but I'm pretty sure getting hot for guys and making out with a dude in a gay bar makes you gay. Since you also like girls, you would be bisexual.
posted by puke & cry 21 February | 19:50
"Since then I've discussed this with a few people and been told that I'm 'bisexual' 'bicurious' 'a horny straight guy,' and 'getting something out of my system.'"

Well, that pretty much covers the possibilities, I think. Should be obvious, though, that ultimately, only you can answer this. Just be honest and careful if you decide to experiment. For what it's worth, I've always suspected that gender preference is more of a sliding scale than eithor/and/or kind of thing.

But IANA[roll your own label].
posted by It's Raining Florence Henderson 21 February | 19:56
*rolls own label, lights it*

this tastes funny, dude.
posted by jonmc 21 February | 19:57
I don't think you should expect anyone else to be able to define what you are. You is what you is.
posted by iconomy 21 February | 19:59
Luckily, I have to leave. Otherwise, it would be all bad puns from here on.

Cheers!
posted by It's Raining Florence Henderson 21 February | 19:59
I'm not gay either, but I don't think you need to worry about labeling it/defining it. (Yeah, might be that lingering guilt thing.)

If you like to make out with guys on occassion, that doesn't make you gay. In my book, it doesn't even make you bi. I consider someone to be bi if they've had significant sexual relationships with both males and females, and this, although not heterosexual behavior, is nothing but a little bit of fun.

Did I mention I'm jealous of the guy?

On preview, what IRFH said about the sliding scale thing.
posted by Specklet 21 February | 20:00
I think "roll your own label" is really the relevant concept here. You decide how you want to self-identify.

However, labels are useful if you're trying to communicate to others where you are sexually. Is that your goal in thinking about it? In that case you should think about which label conveys what you want to convey. You want guys to know you're mostly into girls but not opposed to the occasional hairy makeout, and that you're still new at the whole thing? I'd guess "bi-curious" would cover that pretty well.
posted by agropyron 21 February | 20:01
Did I mention I'm jealous of the guy?

*mops brow*

He looked like a slightly older, less dumb-looking Mark Walberg. He also told me that a needed a haircut and to lose the sideburns. I look for guidance, I get fashion advice.

Lingering guilt, sure. And also (no offense) most of 'gay culture' doesn't appeal to me, which is why this was good place to experiment I guess. First gay bar I've ever been in with Black Sabbath on the jukebox.
posted by jonmc 21 February | 20:04
The sliding scale is as accurate as it gets. I indentify as "not straight" because I don't believe in the way that gender is constructed by society and therefore don't limit my sexual advances one way or the other. So, you like to make out with people who you are attracted to, regardless of gender. Cool. Welcome to the club. :)

(And I'm glad that you're getting out and experimenting. Best of luck out there.)
posted by YouCanCallMeAl 21 February | 20:05
Sexuality is rarely (never?) an either/or thing, and I suspect that any man who claims to have not ever been attracted to another man at some point in their life is lying.

So if a guy turns you on, go for it.

But if he asks for money before getting naked, be careful. Trust me on this one.
posted by cmonkey 21 February | 20:09
Sexuality is rarely (never?) an either/or thing,

I know that...intellectualy. There's classic mefi thread where a very gay dude says (and I quote) "boobs are fun, I sometimes touch girls boobs and say "it's OK, I'm gay""

But, it's different when it's you. I'm just looking for a compass point here. (and no, this is not what the breakup was over, in case you were wondering).
posted by jonmc 21 February | 20:12
I totally relate to where you're coming from Jon. As someone who self-tags as gay out of convenience, I have had occasional sexual feelings for women, and surprised myself a few years ago with a sudden one-nighter. At first, I had to check myself to be sure I hadn't lost the gay. Check. Then, I laughed.

I agree that it's all on a gradient. All beings are sexual, point blank. In nature, purely heterosexual relationships are rare. I wouldn't worry about finding a proper classification, unless you're really, really stuck in a situation and have to blurt something out. Bi-curious sounds safe enough, and I wouldn't take it too much further than that unless the feelings you have become more emotive in quality over sensual in quality. It's a heteroflexible age, (HAHA, our conspiracy is WORKING!!!) and I think that more and more people like you generally identify as straight are feeling that as gays and lesbians are getting freer, you've got some wiggle room too. Enjoy it.

I totally applaud you for even bringing this up- you're a rock star around here and people likely have certain ideas about you. You're obviously a very genuine guy with a lot of humanity to go around. Good on you for exploring this here.
posted by moonbird 21 February | 20:18
Keep in mind, most gay people don't care for stereotypical "gay culture" either. People are people.
posted by matildaben 21 February | 20:23
Oh, and what YouCanCallMeAl said.
posted by moonbird 21 February | 20:23
I totally relate to where you're coming from Jon. As someone who self-tags as gay out of convenience, I have had occasional sexual feelings for women, and surprised myself a few years ago with a sudden one-nighter.

That was always a question I would ask gay male friends. I'd be all 'I get wanting to fool around with a guy. I don't get not wanting to fool around with women. My gay male boss said that he 'had chicks throwing themselves at him in in high school.' I told him this was proof that the world was unfair.

(and speck: your flattery makes my day)

more people like you generally identify as straight are feeling that as gays and lesbians are getting freer, you've got some wiggle room too. Enjoy it.

There's a great book from Feral House called Sex, American Style that makes an interesting case that the straight 'sexual revolution' of the 70's (which barely touched the household I grew up in) paved the way for the gay liberation movement later on. It's an interesting read, with lots of funny stories and great pics.
posted by jonmc 21 February | 20:24
Keep in mind, most gay people don't care for stereotypical "gay culture" either. People are people.

I know. But some dude in this 'bear bar' kept putting Kelly Clarkson on the jukebox. I am not kidding.
posted by jonmc 21 February | 20:25
And what matildaben said. I'm struggling with that right now. The new bf is really enmeshed in all that, while I just don't have the stomach for sterotypical activities and the whole femmy celeb worship thing.
posted by moonbird 21 February | 20:25
I just don't have the stomach for sterotypical activities and the whole femmy celeb worship thing.

You ever come to NYC, we'll hit some headbanger bars and get in a brawl.
posted by jonmc 21 February | 20:28
I suspect that any man who claims to have not ever been attracted to another man at some point in their life is lying
I'm making that claim, and you'll just have to take my word for it.
posted by Wolfdog 21 February | 20:31
I'm making that claim, and you'll just have to take my word for it.

Well,...think back to those 'hero worship,' intense male bonding friendships like the ones described in this song (which I still maintain is the best omnisexual love/friendship song ever). I imagine for gay people who must go through the male bonding/hero worship shit like everybody else, that those feelings must complicate things.
posted by jonmc 21 February | 20:40
You ever come to NYC, we'll hit some headbanger bars and get in a brawl.

LOL. I had a few wacky moments in the City. Played a quasi-punk gig at the Under Acme (sure it's gone by now) in '94 and just about had my teeth handed to me. Those were the days.

I have really strong heteromale friendships where I can feel like one of the guys. I also have lots of butchy lesbian friendships where I feel the same. I've never gotten on well with gay men, which can be a real hang up. Yet I dig the occasional drag show (who doesn't love a good genderfuck?), and feel evenly balanced in terms of feminine/masculine. It's all relative, and I'm happy that I never bought into either package deal.
posted by moonbird 21 February | 20:50
I'd screw amberglow.
posted by Cryptical Envelopment 21 February | 20:55
Whether he would screw me is an whole other question.
posted by Cryptical Envelopment 21 February | 20:57
I have really strong heteromale friendships where I can feel like one of the guys. I also have lots of butchy lesbian friendships where I feel the same.

Remember my oft-mentioned lesbian ex? If you ever met her, after 5 minutes you'd be like 'I gotta introduce this chick to jonmc' right down to the rock fanaticism and t-shirts. It's all really confusing.
posted by jonmc 21 February | 20:57
Why don't we all just screw each other and be done with it? :)
posted by moonbird 21 February | 20:58
do we have enough towels and cigarrettes?
posted by jonmc 21 February | 21:01
Not nearly enough. Matt Haughey will provide!
posted by Cryptical Envelopment 21 February | 21:03
Dibs on the condom/lube concession.
posted by bmarkey 21 February | 21:05
Now there's a project I can get behind. Or on top of.
posted by matildaben 21 February | 21:12
Oops! I just outed amberglow as a male! All is lost!

Bum sex is good! Take your time and take your tips.
posted by Cryptical Envelopment 21 February | 21:16
Er...

The clipboard is your friend!

/derail
posted by Cryptical Envelopment 21 February | 21:20
most of 'gay culture' doesn't appeal to me

'Gay Culture' is just as varied as 'Straight Culture.' It's not all about gyms/clubs in Chelsea, Kelly Clarkson and Madonna, shares on the Pines/F.I.

There is a wide spectrum of gay folk: homebodies, partiers, athletes, aesthetes, twinkies and bears.
posted by ericb 21 February | 21:21
Etc., etc. etc.
posted by ericb 21 February | 21:22
Jon, this thread just tipped me off about you & pips breaking up -- I'd missed the post from last week. First off, I'm really sorry to hear it -- if you ever want to drop me a line, please don't hesitate. Second, as for what making out with another guy makes you? Dude, in my book, it makes you HAWT.
posted by scody 21 February | 21:22
Dude, in my book, it makes you HAWT.

I figured you thought I was hawt already, since I definitely thought you were back when we met.
posted by jonmc 21 February | 21:24
last summer(?), someone posted a link to, like, a career aptitude test kinda like the myers-briggs. i *thought* i remembered jonmc getting results like "makeup artist" and "costume designer", but i can't for the life of me find that thread. am i on crack or can someone please help me out here?
posted by Wedge 21 February | 21:26
(if you'll let me get corny: you're the type of girl, that if I met you at 16, my life would've been very different)
posted by jonmc 21 February | 21:26
Of course, you're right ericb. I think in general, most of us take it really easy... yet the idea of gay culture is manufactured, both by those of us feeling a need to find something to belong to, and by society at large. I for one am kinda in this "natureboy-spiritual-lefty-eccentric" lumping, can fit comfortably in a gay club or in a biker bar pool hall. Kinda like everything else, it is all on a gradient- citing a 'gay culture' is much the same kind of label as 'gay' is. Yet there is, especially among the yoof, a common view of what it means to be gay socially, in terms of dress, activities, etc. It's all one big generalization that gets used a lot for something far more variegated and diverse.
posted by moonbird 21 February | 21:31
Dude, in my book, it makes you HAWT.

That's all fine, but the important question is this: does it make him emo?
posted by Five Fresh Fish 21 February | 21:35
Now that's fightin' words, dude.
posted by jonmc 21 February | 21:38
I for one am kinda in this "natureboy-spiritual-lefty-eccentric" lumping, can fit comfortably in a gay club or in a biker bar pool hall.

Me too. and I take a probably inordinate amount of pride in it, but I'll admit that the idea that I had to conform to some swishy/leatherboy stereotype might've been a factor in keeping me from coming clean about this stuff way back when.
posted by jonmc 21 February | 21:43
Jon, don't sweat it: it's just sex. Life's too short to worry over it.
posted by AlexReynolds 21 February | 21:47
You're not alone, jonmc, m'man. Not by far. Go exploring. If my experience can allow me to venture a calculated guess--and it does *wink*--chances are your exploration will not only help to reinforce and validate your sense of the masculine (both personal and in general), but also will enhance your socializing/romancing/seduction skills with women. Most guys I've known, once they've finally accepted and learned to really enjoy their attractions across the full spectrum, suddenly blossom socially. Because they've finally become comfortable with themselves down to the subatomic level, or something, and that shit radiates out to everyone you come into contact with.

It's really quite awesome to see that process in action. Go man, go!

I'm jealous, too. I've always wanted to make out with a guy in New York City. Hee hee.
posted by WolfDaddy 21 February | 21:48
many leatherboys and men are swishy too--bears and truck driver types as well. : >
posted by amberglow 21 February | 21:48
I really really really love women. To the point it's a borderline disorder. But the other night I had a gay dream! Perhaps you inspired me, jon (no, it wasn't you). I guess I go from a 10 to a 9 on the scale.
posted by Eideteker 21 February | 21:49
many leatherboys and men are swishy too--bears and truck driver types as well.

Exactly. they seem like a parody of masculinity. The dude I wound up with said something similar, that he was gay, he wanted men, not men who acted like women. although he did laugh his ass off at a filthy joke of mine that ends in '...that's gotta be Willie Nelson.'
posted by jonmc 21 February | 21:52
jon, from what you've said about your history, etc., I'd say you were bi tipping over to the straight side.

Have fun, use a nice lotion for the beard burn and don't forget the rubbers.
;^)

And for whatever it's worth - I use the lable "bisexual" because it's convenient. I've always been attracted to a person, the dangly bits are of secondary concern.
posted by deborah 21 February | 21:53
I suspect that any man who claims to have not ever been attracted to another man at some point in their life is lying

I also claim that. Not homophobic, have nothing to prove, some of my best friends are blah blah you know the rest, but I have seriously never felt the slightest sexual attraction to a man.

posted by drjimmy11 21 February | 21:59
I for one am kinda in this "natureboy-spiritual-lefty-eccentric" lumping

Me too.

Ok, now that's a surprising thing to hear jon say.
posted by danostuporstar 21 February | 21:59
What is this "Sex" that you refer to?
posted by King of Prontopia 21 February | 22:00
FWIW, I'm currently dating a member of the opposite sex. I'm generally attracted to guys, and "manly" attributes, but I've had sexual dreams and made out with a bunch of chicks. I like all different kinds of porn - gay, straight, lesbian, solo, multiple, whatever. However, I don't identify as "lesbian" or "bisexual" or "bi-curious" - I'm just a girl, and I like love and comfort and yes, sex, from people, regardless of gender. Does that help, jon?

I have seriously never felt the slightest sexual attraction to a man.
And that's ok, too. But haven't you ever wondered whether that's just social conditioning?

Dude, in my book, it makes you HAWT.
I'll be in my bunk.
posted by muddgirl 21 February | 22:01
Ok, now that's a surprising thing to hear jon say.

The lefty part, I'll vouch for. I was more referring to moonbird's comfort in a wide range of enviornmets.
posted by jonmc 21 February | 22:01
I'll be in my bunk.

I'll make room. But Jayne is ALL MINE!
posted by WolfDaddy 21 February | 22:03
watching boys that are still a little unsure of the whole thing making out with each other is the hawt. It's that combination of nervousness and excitement.

[/shallow]

jon, are you feeling reassured? I hope so. For reals, you don't need a label man.
posted by gaspode 21 February | 22:12
yeah, more or less. I think I more felt the need to go public than anything else. and FWIW, I was the one who grabbed the dude by the lapels of his leather jacket and started kissing. I think I stunned the poor guy, frankly.
posted by jonmc 21 February | 22:14
Oooh, yeah, definitely need some alone time.
posted by deborah 21 February | 22:20
Jeez, this is the first time in my life I've inspired this much 'alone time.' I'm all a-twitter. Wait that that's the DT's. Nope, I'm all a-twitter.
posted by jonmc 21 February | 22:23
dude. stop drinking.
posted by quonsar 21 February | 22:23
(I was kidding, q)
posted by jonmc 21 February | 22:26
i'm not. but you knew that.
posted by quonsar 21 February | 22:27
Wow, what a night for me to be away from home/computer all night!

Let's see, first things first: I only just heard about your breakup this weekend, jon, so I don't know how long ago that was, but let me offer a belated "dude, that sucks" to that. :(

As for this other news, let me say this: I think that we as Americans tend to wrap sexuality and "image" into a single package, which is frankly ridiculous. It causes a problem when someone knows there is a part of their sexuality they'd likr to explore, but they don't because they dislike the image that goes with it. I went through it as a teen... I knew VERY early on that I liked guys, and I een knew what KIND of guys I liked, but the "image" in those days was that guys like that were never gay. Also, I half-wondered, "Do I have I have to stop listening to my kind of music and whatnot if I'm gay?"

But then I grew up, was able to disentangle the "image" and "sexuality" threads in my mind, and (joy!) found out that in fact, "my type" of guy was in fact sometimes gay. Awesome.

You of all people know the stupidity of trying to live a label- look at every musicpost you've made since I've known you this last year or so. :) It's the same thing with sexuality- be yourself, follow your joy, and fuck what others think. You can and should do all three at once.


posted by BoringPostcards 21 February | 22:40
Pete Townshend - Rough Boys

Fuck it, sexuality is fluid for many people, you're in good company.
posted by tetsuo 21 February | 22:44
Bob Mould had a great interview about gay culture and music and stuff like that. I'll have to track it down for you.
posted by matildaben 21 February | 22:49
Yeah, I have to agree with that. For someone who sometimes hopes their long term relationship fails just cuz the person they are with is unhappy with the fact that I'm as likely to be attracted to girls as to boys, I hope you, of all people, jonmc, would be okay with the same :)
posted by Sil 21 February | 22:50
I hate to sound like a broken record but I'm gonna mention Richard Price's Ladies Man again. One of the crucial plot points in that book is when Kenny the narrator, runs into Donny, a friend from the old neigborhood, who turns out to be gay. Donny takes Kenny on a tour of late 70's Christopher Street that's one of the best depictions of sexual confusion and the male libido ever. It's just one episode in an amazingly complicated book, but an amazing one.
posted by jonmc 21 February | 22:55
This may or may not be the Bob Mould interview I remember, but he does touch on a lot of those same subjects.
posted by matildaben 21 February | 23:07
Jon, I'm sorry to hear you broke up with pips; this is the first I heard of it, too.

However, I doubt you're gay, or bi-curious, or whatever. Dontworryaboutitsomuch.

Take care.
posted by yhbc 21 February | 23:18
Right now, more than anything, you are without a label, Jon. When you grow up straight you don't notice how much stability you get from the straight label. You think to yourself "it's not a label, it's true!" It may be true, but it's also a label, and with it comes pervasive societal acceptance, bountiful character templates to follow (and not follow) tons of heroes you can look to, easy modes for others to utilize to understand you, clear vocabulary for everything you feel.... It comes with a lot.

Paradoxically enough, being a straight male is such a priveleged class that you even have the freedom to go outside your straightness if you wish. I'm speaking as a Bay Area resident to a NYC resident, of course. In most places, men have lots of power, but nowhere near as much wiggle room as women have. Women are now allowed to wear pants pretty much anywhere, but just you try putting on a skirt (even by yourself, alone at home).

There seems to be no question that you like women, Jon. No question at all. Very little question that you *prefer* them. If you like something else from time to time, does it say anything about you? In my humble opinion, nothing deep. To me, it says you're that much broader in what you're willing to explore in this world, and you haven't bought into what your role is *supposed* to be. Kudos for that.

But shit, it's 2006. If your libido looks from side to side as you walk the straight and narrow, don't be afraid to stop. Remember: you are a M-A-N and the world is your oyster! ;) You have the power to fuck whatever you want. That freedom is worth so much more than any label.

It's completely irrelevant to argue whether you're gay, bisexual, straight, or whatever. I could make a convincing argument for any of those. You are who you are. You do, in fact, have the ability to be an absolute individual. I find David Bowie an inspiration in this regard: the man clearly got down with other men and wasn't afraid to wear makeup either. But he also had one hell of a career as a heterosexual. Where does that leave him?
posted by scarabic 21 February | 23:38
69th comment! oh yeah
posted by scarabic 21 February | 23:42
Second, as for what making out with another guy makes you? Dude, in my book, it makes you HAWT.

I totally second that.

And Jon, I know of women who are straight, yet like to make out with other women every so often. No one harasses them to label themselves and you shouldn't have to either.
posted by sisterhavana 21 February | 23:42
Well, I'm not gay but I'm pretty sure getting hot for guys and making out with a dude in a gay bar makes you gay. Since you also like girls, you would be bisexual.


I actually don't agree with this. I don't think that a bisexual is someone who has some sexual attraction to both sexes. To be a true bisexual, I think you have to be able to consider a real relationship with either. "Sexual preference" is the most relevant term to me, not "orientation" or anything else. That's because "preference" makes things clear for most of us yet provides remarkable flexibility, enough to rise to meet our modern times and all their complexity. Jon, if you "prefer" women and don't get into relationships with men, you are straight. Perhaps you even make a few exceptions for extraordinary guys. You're still probably straight.

Our culture being what it is, you must expect twists in the path. If you don't take at least a few, you're not living.
posted by scarabic 21 February | 23:47
Jon,
I agree with everyone else who says you don't need to label yourself. I think labeling yourself simply cuts you off from enyoying a lot of experiences.

When I came out at fourteen, I labeled myself a lesbian and was pretty content with that until I found myself majorly attracted to a transgender guy (female to male). Since then, I've done a lot of soul searching, and now I just identify as queer.

So go out there, have some fun, and be safe.

posted by jaksemas 22 February | 00:00
The biggest problem I see with that model, scarabic, is that by discounting sexual attraction and placing all of the focus on relationships, you're not accounting for closeted gays. Even more problematic are people who are honestly emotionally drawn to people they are not sexually attracted to (and vice versa). I personally prefer to avoid oversimplifying sexuality. It's seems more worthwhile to treat it as a journey than an address.
posted by It's Raining Florence Henderson 22 February | 00:13
don't label yourself, and don't label and prejudge other people by what clique they look like they belong to (unless you find someone hot and want them, and don't want to be disappointed that their look doesn't match what you thought they would be like as a person)--and always always always use rubbers if you're going to do anything involving sticking something anywhere other than a mouth--with women too.
posted by amberglow 22 February | 00:21
scarabic, it's not about relationships--it's about desire. And "preference" is insulting to all of us who never made a choice. I prefer coffee to tea--my sexuality and sexual orientation is not at all like that.
posted by amberglow 22 February | 00:22
Ok, so I'm sorry to piss on the parade folks.

Everyone is mostly supportive here and that's great jon but I am a bit concerned about you. It's good to explore yourself and the world but it sucks to sleep outdoors and eat from the public trough. It worries me that you have just come out of a long relationship and are now doing things you have not allowed yourself to do before.

It's not about the what and with whom, but about timing and quantity. I just hope that all of the things you are doing right now are not interfering with your work and other mundane aspects of life. As someone who has slashed and burned a few social forests I just want to suggest that you ask for help should you find work and other day to day details falling to the wayside. Don't let being yourself dig you into a deep hole.

I think q is saying something similar
posted by arse_hat 22 February | 00:26
Huh. Whaddya know? My grandfather's right. The whole world IS turning gay.

Be you, man. If I can be a married man with one kid and a kid on the way and still think that Taye Diggs could jam my toast anytime he wanted, then anything goes.

Here, in fact, is the definitive list of my gay crushes:
Antonio Banderas (I don't believe that sham marriage of his for a moment)
Kevin Spacey (Which quickly disappeared once I found out he was...you know...available.)
Jude Law (Gattica was a beautiful gay love story ruined by Uma...but I can't forgive the nanny stuff, Jude...sorry)
Taye Diggs (My wife was pissed when I lingered over his picture in Vanity Fair...shit, I was just trying to see if that really was a bear rug...HEY! He's sending me coded messages!)

(Oh, and heteroflexible is my new favorite word.)
posted by ColdChef 22 February | 00:45
And ditto what arse_hat is saying above. It's fun to dance on the edge, but don't fall off.
posted by ColdChef 22 February | 00:46
Hm... I'm confused why "preference" should be insulting. Perhaps "tendency" is a better word. I never implied it to be a choice (and wouldn't ever say that in any case - let's call that a miscommunication). "Preference," for me, is more of taking a step back and examining your behavior and feelings, and finding where the center is. I just don't think you should call yourself bisexual just because you've tiptoed on both sides of the fence. Men who've had same-sex experiences yet tend overwhelmingly toward women are not bisexual, IMO, they are straight. That's because it's a matter of "majority tendency," not some kind of "one drop rule." That's what I mean by preference.

You can "prefer" men on a cellular level, amberglow :) I didn't mean to imply choice.

by discounting sexual attraction and placing all of the focus on relationships, you're not accounting for closeted gays. Even more problematic are people who are honestly emotionally drawn to people they are not sexually attracted to (and vice versa)


Again, perhaps too little specificity on my part. Sexual attraction is a key and integral component of relationships for me. I know exactly what you're talking about with respect to closeted gays who enter hetero relationships, even marriages, and I guess I don't honestly think of those as "relationships." They're more like friendships that go too far.

My point is that if you're going to try to apply any characterestics to your Identity with a capital "I" you should feel moved head-to-toe toward a person, not simply sexually, before you consider it a significant criterion.

But maybe that's me: I tend to be able to find some reason to want to fuck more or less anything, so I don't consider sexual attaction alone much of a noteworthy event. I have absolutely no boundaries in what/who I'm attacted to, be they age/race/gender/whatever. But I know that I tend to be attracted MOSTLY toward women around my age. That's why I say my "preference" is straight. But a preference isn't something that binds you.
posted by scarabic 22 February | 01:14
*reads entire thread, falls over*

*gets up, re-reads entire thread, falls over again*

*opens mouth to say something supportive and meaningful, realize it has all been said already, closes mouth*

*shakes jonmc's hand, pats him on the back about the breakup, falls over again*
posted by loquacious 22 February | 02:13
Third the condoms--please keep yourself safe. When I saw Chasing Amy, even though Alyssa described herself as a lesbian, I thought the better description would be fluid.

Jonmc, I only found your offer today and I was flattered, but the most physical I want to be with you is hugging--which may be moot now. I think I'm not just speaking for myself in saying that your respect for women is one of your qualities. You are a good person and I want you to be the best for yourself.
posted by brujita 22 February | 02:30
I know. But some dude in this 'bear bar' kept putting Kelly Clarkson on the jukebox. I am not kidding.
Now, that's gay!

I AM kidding!

It's all already been said, but do what ya gotta do, be what ya gotta be.

I can genuinely say that I have never been sexually attracted to another man, ever (as in finding a specific man attractive - I can't imagine what women see in us, to be honest). But I can imagine (and have) participating in sexual activity with another man with a woman involved and who knows where that may lead? In the end, we are all sexual beings and which way we lean can be as simple as how we feel at a specific moment in time. At this moment, the thought of kissing another man on the mouth almost makes me gag, but I can think about other activities with curiosity and not a little stirring of interest at the least.

It's fun to dance on the edge, but don't fall off.
Best.
Advice.
Ever.
posted by dg 22 February | 03:48
I agree completely with the sliding scale of sexuality metaphor, and to be honest, I don't think the question you're asking right now is the right question. It's not "what am I" that you really need to explore, but "who am I".

I think that there's a great chance that you may try to fill up the Who-am-I hole with a lot of sexual (and other) experimentation right now, but it won't answer that question any more than binge eating or drugs or alcohol. I'm not saying "don't do it"... I'm saying who/how you fuck is not who you are. How much you do it is not who you are. How much other people do or don't want to fuck you is not who you are. Basically, I'm saying that the sex doesn't matter, except to the degree that you try to hide yourself in it or hurt yourself with it. Just like anything else.

I think that the best advice ever given to you (here, recently) is to write, to begin writing seriously - that there's a great chance you could find the "who" of you in there. You have a profound need to express yourself, to wrestle with some big questions, and for the most part it manifests itself in raw, nervy - even painful - energy that you try to dissipate in sex/music/alcohol obsessions. All those things are aspects of you, but they aren't you, and they aren't enough for you. They don't answer.

It seems to me that the most important thing you could do now is to begin to focus that energy, to pour yourself into something, instead of pouring anything or anybody into you... and intuition suggests that the writing idea is brilliant. I know that's not easy advice. I know that when you sit down to do that, it's just you and you and that's a tough space for anyone... but I also believe that you could find sometihng elusive there, and really do something significant with it. I also think that if you need help from qualified outside sources to begin to learn how to focus and draw together that scattered energy, that you shouldn't foolishly discount those options.

I know that this is basically facile armchair analysis, but I'm not going to spend a lot of space apologizing for it; my apology is implicit, but I would like to say that I think it would be a fascinating thing to see you try your hand at some New Millenium NYC vignettes, a la Joseph Mitchell... something with heart from a writer who inhabits the soul of the story. That would be a very good thing.
posted by taz 22 February | 06:08
jonmc, if you listen to nobody else, listen to taz. She speak good.
posted by dg 22 February | 06:19
I'll probably regret posting this, it's like kicking a puppy or something but here goes anyway. It just seems to me that there's something very obvious about all this that no one else has mentioned so far.

You've mentioned several times, both here and on IRC, about the woman who dumped you to "become" a lesbian. It's obvious that this event was very hurtful to you.

Recently, you split up with Pips and then come here and very publicly announce that you're exploring your gay side.

Now I should make this very clear: I'm not questioning your motives (after all, I don't have a dog in this race) all I'm saying is maybe you should question your own motives. Be honest with yourself.
posted by dodgygeezer 22 February | 07:23
*reads entire thread, falls over*

*gets up, re-reads entire thread, falls over again*

*opens mouth to say something supportive and meaningful, realize it has all been said already, closes mouth*

*shakes jonmc's hand, pats him on the back about the breakup, falls over again*


People are people, sex is sex, and you are more than one person's idea of hawt. Be careful of yourself, you don't need a label to know what that means.
posted by rainbaby 22 February | 08:00
In any case, jon, you are out there taking life by the scruff of the neck and giving it a good shake. Carpe diem before the diem carpes all over you.

Or some such shit.
posted by dg 22 February | 08:42
I dunno, jonmc - I don't hear a story about sex and identity. I hear a guy in pain. The breakup with pips. The on again-off again struggle with drinking. This sex thing seems to be a side issue in a larger struggle. Not a criticism, but a sincere hope that you are OK, jonmc.

posted by madamjujujive 22 February | 09:24
I wouldn't worry about the sex, as long as you're safe you'll be ok, and you seem to not be traumatized by anything that you're doing in that arena.

Listen to taz. She's got good advice.

Take care of yourself: a facile statement, but what I mean is that you need to make sure you've given yourself the proper information and choices in order to be able to take care of yourself.
posted by omiewise 22 February | 10:12
Again, what taz said.
posted by Miko 22 February | 10:28
What can I add that everyone hasn't already said? We, I, still love you man. And what taz said to, and arse-hat. You are in a vulnerable place, and while I'm not at all the person to advise you to not do anything crazy, do be safe and smart and watch out for your heart brother.
posted by tr33hggr 22 February | 10:42
I've always thought that taz was the wise one around here. Now I know it. Listen to her.
posted by bmarkey 22 February | 12:17
I wish taz was my mom. She's so brilliant and kind and wise.

I do think it would be great if you wrote, Jon. You've got a voice, and something to say. Maybe your first novel will be a bit derivative of Richard Price, but your second one will rock.
posted by matildaben 22 February | 14:46
I dunno, jonmc - I don't hear a story about sex and identity. I hear a guy in pain. The breakup with pips. The on again-off again struggle with drinking. This sex thing seems to be a side issue in a larger struggle. Not a criticism, but a sincere hope that you are OK, jonmc.

I agree with madamjujulive. Hope yer okay, jonmc.
posted by AlexReynolds 22 February | 15:24
Yo bro, let's go drinking and fuck us some people!

Actually, I've been holding off posting here because I don't want to give you advice. Or I don't want you taking any advice I might give. Sounds cryptic, but I resent the hell out of the whole process. I'm sure I could explain, but I'd be sticking my head up my own ass to do it, and my ass is on fire.

So to keep my hair unsinged, I say: You're the man. Do what you want; you'll still be the man. As far as vulnerable, as far as curious, as far as hurt is concerned, I wouldn't presume to say. I have similar experiences, but that doesn't count for a fig. Advice, pity, and judgment are too intertwined for my tastes. So I'll say:

I'm proud to call you my friend, jonmc. You're a hell of a guy.

Now let's go drink and fuck people.
posted by Hugh Janus 22 February | 15:35
The real question is whether you are Akbar or Jeff.
posted by Doohickie 22 February | 22:14
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