You usually make sense, but your spelling sucks.

You make sense, Jon. You're very well-spoken, actually.

Of course, you also tend to repeat yourself, so even on the rare occasions that you don't make sense the first time, it becomes clear later on. (I don't mean that to be mean. Just saying.)

it's not nise to teez teh iliterit, mistur. yer meen.

(on preview: thanks, pup. it's just that sometimes this whole online writing thing leaves me very...discouraged. I feel like I'm talking to a wall, or worse that I'm being laughed at after laying myself bare)

I think you generally make sense (and I certainly very much enjoyed talking with you the other day on the MeCha feminism thread), but I think that because you post so many comments, you end up reacting to *everyone*, which makes everyone start reacting to you, which then tends to make the thread (at least the ones I've read) a little too personally about you, which, I assume, makes you want to post more to defend or explain yourself.

In concrete terms: Your first comment was cute, and totally could stand on its own, without your having to defend it for the next 80-odd comments.

Does that make sense?

I have the same tendencies, so I'm hardly condemning you, but I also have much less name recognition, so I try to rein myself in when I get that urge (not always successfully).

And if it helps, I also feel like I'm often talking to a wall over there. People either reading too fast, or making too many assumptions about me (which I would imagine would be 3,000x worse for you), or just simply being obtuse, and those are the people who tend to post the most comments, because they're not taking time to read or think.

I hear you occhiblu. I'm a chatterbox in person, too, since as Bob Dylan says "I have a head full of ideas that are driving me insane." But sometimes I wish my name wasn't so recognized so that people would react to the substance of what I'm trying to say, rather than the 'image' that's been foisted upon me; the whole "blue-collar average guy" thing. I havent held a blue collar job in almost a decade, and I'm the son of a home funishings salesman not a steelworker. It's not an image I ever really wanted. And I embrace lowbrow culture, it's because that's what I grew up with-TV, the radio, & popular fiction.

And if I embrace the "average guy," label, it's not because I claim to be some kind of representative, it's just that I realize I'm not 'the scientist guy' or 'the really smart guy' or 'the gay s&m dude' or the 'political girl' just someone fairly ordinary without any special expertise. That's all. Just feel like clearing the air to be taken on my own terms and figured you guys would be more honest than the crew at the Blue.

Yeah, but maybe it'd help if you stopped posting 40+ comments in each thread stating your position over and over -- that tends to solidify images in people's heads :-)

Its one of the problems with flat comments like on MeFi. Its easy to get derailed into a million side conversations that are taken the wrong way by people who didn't read it from the start. If one could read through a mini-thread within the thread then I think you'd be alot less misunderstood.

Well, that and people only reading a handful of comments, not reading the link and then deciding to wax on about how wrong everyone is.

But you generally make sense to me. And that's all that really matters, isn't it? Besides, there are some newer members that just want to square off with some of the old folks so they pick fights intentionally.

Seriously, jon, I don't think I've ever read anything you've written which was not immediately understandable. The spelling, though, is a constant distraction.

Though, good job in this post!

well, my spelling (and I suspect that of a lot of mefites) is due to the fact that we're often typing surreptitiously and quickly while the boss isn't looking, so we don't have as much time to edit as we'd like.

I miss those days.

Was Optimus Chyme serious?

Nah, he was fucking with me.

I was wondering as I remember the Arrested Development thread.

Actually, I think one of the biggest causes of conflict in that place is the differences in communication style. Some people use a very formal, almost debate-society approach, and when that's done well, it can be amazing to read. Others like to use more casually worded anecdotes. Still, other snappy one liners or rants. All of which in the right hands can be great to read. But it can cause a lot of confusion and misunderstanding. Not that I'd advise imposing a set 'style' on the place, since it's principal appeal is the variety of voices, just an observation.

jon, there is an obvious relationship between cognitive complexity and intelligence and it has has been demonstrated that the Budner scale does correlate strongly with intelligence. What little internal consistency intolerance of ambiguity measures do have, therefore, is probably an effect of their having a common component of intelligence and it is also true of cognitive style measures as more broadly conceived. I do hope that is clear.

What arse_hat said.

That's some deepassed shit, arsemeister.

I really miss writing college papers.

I miss writing book reports. I loved doing that in elementary school.

I remember when I worked in a bookstore, this mentally handicapped girl wanted a computer book so she could write a report about how she won a gold medal somewhere. she was so enthusiastic, i got kind of misty. That's a weird weakness of mine.

Quit showing off, arse_hat! Or, thanks for making think.

I miss those classes in college that got me all fired up and thinking and mixing my streams of thought and writing off-the-wall but oddly coherent essaysand stories.

And the random sex was good too.

On another note, King George now will accept dumb 35-40 year olds for cannon fodder duty military service. George wants me! Hahahaha. Also, they haven't said it in so many words but I think they'd prefer if soldiers died instead of got wounded. Hospitals cost more than morgues.

Hmm, I think I need to go find an Iraq thread to bash around in.

Me too jon. Enthusiasm with ingenuousness is always heartwrming.

I think you make yourself very clear, same as people said above. The main drawbacks in your rhetorical style, in my opinion (and keeping in mind that I very often agree with and approve of you), are these: (a) You get your back up and get reactive, repeating yourself a lot, which causes people to react to you; and (b) you have this infuriating habit of taking "humorous" potshots at music that is not within the realm of the music you love, but which someone else may love as deeply as you love the music you love, and you don't realize how much it pisses people off or even hurts them, because you're not putting yourself in their shoes when you do it.

you have this infuriating habit of taking "humorous" potshots at music that is not within the realm of the music you love, but which someone else may love as deeply as you love the music you love, and you don't realize how much it pisses people off or even hurts them, because you're not putting yourself in their shoes when you do it.

I've figured that out and have been trying to back off from it. so point taken.

Also, much of my much ballyhooed 'dislike' for 'hipster' culture stems from one thing: the whole emphasis seems to be on how unimpressed and deadpan you can seem. And I've never been able to manage that. I'm a very spasmodic energetic person and I get very evangelical about my enthusiams, which I realize makes me seem silly and naive to some. No doubt my distaste for that has probably prevented me from appreciating stuff I might like.

And for further elucidation read Richard Price's complete works.

Your posts are perfectly cromulent, jonmc. Your blase, deadpan hipsterism is so advanced that it has wrapped around into enthusiasm. Screw 'em if they can't see that.

I've developed a few impressions of you, jon. The most striking is that you have little confidence in your native intelligence.

I don't know why you go down that road. You're obviously quite smart.

As for your counter-hipster bullshit, I'm afraid that just comes across as an attempt to be more cool than the hipsters. It doesn't work, especially when what you're railing against isn't a hipster artifice.

Jon, you're fine.

I desperately want you (and your sig other ) to come down here and meet me at the Waffle House for deep conversation and greasy patty melts. Followed by Starbucks mocha frappucinos at the local Barnes and Noble.

(can you tell I am outta meds?)

Followed by Starbucks mocha frappucinos at the local Barnes and Noble.

you forget, I spent 5 years of my life working for (and trying and failing to unionize) their main competition. ;>

I miss writing book reports. I loved doing that in elementary school.
me too : >

jon, you are crystal clear--much more clear than i am, and than others are. It's that you build a wall. And that whatever is past that wall, or tries to topple it, or whatever, gets not heard and nor understood. I had it happen to me tonight in real life when i was trying to explain why i'm not comforable here anymore--i asked questions--is it ok to take people and send them away without a trial or charges? they said no. I said, so, what are you going to do about it? they said nothing... and that was it--i hit their wall, and they could not understand that i'm not on that same side as they are...

I agree that most of the time, you're perfectly clear. You are a total chatterbox, though, and I have a feeling that the constant remarks from you may wear some MeFi-ites down. I sure as hell do not know how you can comment so often and frequently *here* when I can barely get in these days because of how they're working me.

The other thing about the way you talk is that you do get so energetic that you barely allow the other person in the conversation a chance to talk or get their words in. I'm not sure exactly how this relates to how you communicate in text, but sometimes when we're talking IRL, I find it hard to tell whether or not you're actually listening to what I'm saying rather than formulating what tangent you're going to go off on next.

Hope this helps.

The nature of metafilter is that people who make sense are generally ignored. I believe that you fall into this category.

Since you ask..

You'll never convince anyone that you are anything but a very articulate and thoughtful guy (spelling aside - but, you know, you could hit that little thing called a spellcheck button...but, whatever)

I may not always agree with what you say, I may not always like what you say but I think the cosmos is better off with your voice than without it.

The only thing I would suggest is that you give consideration to prefacing your 1-liner first shots in a thread with words out of this list...

I think for me
To me
I feel for me
I've always regarded
It seems to me

or something along those lines. My take is that you sometimes cause a ruckus because your comments can often be read more as 'decrees' than contributions, if you follow. People rail against being told what to think or having things defined for them - they want to make up there own minds.

I understand you have to type fast and I've seen on a number of occasions where you've had to come back to defend a (particularly) first comment or re-frame or give it qualifiers etc etc and it's always struck me that the extra work you make for yourself might be rolled back if you add a bit of politically more palatable entree to your comments.

By the by, the way you frame stuff generally (ie. 'decree' - type peanut shots or jibes or ripostes or whatever) doesn't worry me in the slightest. I'm just suggesting that smoothing your way from the outset of your contributions to a thread might afford you a little bit more latitude, a little better reception and a little less bait to those who disagree with either your premise or your delivery.

Personally I'm more likely to disagree with some content but hey, that's ok and obviously it's almost never enough of a grate to prompt me to battle with you.

jon, brutally honest: Not so much in relation to that thread, but - you can often be a big bully, and you do tend to totally take over conversations. If someone has the misfortune to post about something that you don't personally care for, you can be like a dog with a bone.

You've done it to me (here), and I have to say that I don't think there was any problem with me or anyone else misunderstanding you.

So, because you are so insistent about repeatedly stating your opinions (often - admit it - in the most arrogant terms), you get a lot of feedback, and the law of averages pretty much dictates that many of the people responding will not necessarily get your point, for a variety of reasons, but most of them have nothing to do with any shortcomings in your writing style.

Anyway, mostly from here at mecha, I've grown to realize that you really don't actually see yourself as being Mr. Knowitall "My-opinion-is-the-only-one-that-matters", and, in fact, tend to think of yourself as the beleaguered little guy, but trust me when I say that this is not how others view you, and this may be a part of why you often feel misunderstood.

You make sense, verbally, textually.

Your behavior does not make sense. Often, you jump into a thread and say something contrary, or, as in Taz's example, just insult whatever is going on and then go on with defending yourself. Many threads that you comment in become threads about you.

Personally, I find this annoying. I feel like you are constantly telling, retelling, and telling us again how you are down with the everyman and blah, blah, blah. It feels anti-intellectual and fake, and it's not backed up by the sophistication of some of your comments.

And I totally, completely agree with Five Fresh Fish. Sometimes you are so busy railing against hipster-ness that you don't realize that the thread is, in fact, not about something hipsters embrace or enjoy. Or ignore. Or whatever. Which makes you seem like a knee-jerk... jerk with problems.

It makes you look defensive, all the time, it feels insecure and it does nothing for the worthwhile contributions you do make. It'll take time to shed, but I have no doubts you could be better understood with just a little effort.

peacay:
My take is that you sometimes cause a ruckus because your comments can often be read more as 'decrees' than contributions, if you follow.

And pretty much everything peacay and taz said. You are completely understandable, but the only time I've ever got miffed at something you've said has been one of your "this is the way it is" statements. Only slightly, because I know that's not how you are in person. But not many people have that advantage.

Unfortunately, for a subgroup of people, they may have a negative kneejerk reaction every time they see your username now.

To me, at mefi, you come across as articulate and smart. I spell like shit as well, so that doesn't bother me :)

I don't care what anyone else says; I think you're a wonderful man and I'd love to subscribe to your newsletter.

Thanks for the feedback, everybody, really. I guess I have to work on some stuff if I want to cause myself less aggravation. Some of it, (like the knee jerk edicts about subjective tastes), I've realized was just a petulant overreaction on my part from earlier incidents and that's childish so I'll holster it.

I still hate Morrissey, though.

That's sad Jon, 'cause moz loves you.

*rubs raw chuck steak all over body*

that should repel him.

I'm kinda late but what mudpuppie and matildaben said.

Hey Jon, I just wanted to say that you have a lot of courage to put yourself out there like you did in this thread. You've been a good listener and weren't always jumping up to defend or refute. This is what I love about this place, as opposed to MeFi - we can actually talk to each other with respect and as equals. If and when I meet you in person, I am definitely buying you a second scotch just on the strength of this thread alone (the first scotch I'll buy you is just for being you).

I'm def down for buying Jon a beer if'n we ever meet up. I have nothing to say about your posts, as I don't read enough of Metachat to follow everything.

What I will say is that I'd much rather be over here than paying for Metafilter backbiting and solipsism. Here's to Bunny Tolerance.