MetaChat - I feel so posty today!

Define sluttiness. Do you mean mere promiscuity or actual cheapness (meaning lack of feeling, dishonesty etc).

The former I can deal with (even if it's not my bag), the latter I can do without.

posted by jonmc 04 January | 12:49

Sluts of the world, unite!

posted by jrossi4r 04 January | 12:50

I say SHAME SHAME on sluttiness.

bwa! just kidding, you know you're my slut mentor.

posted by ThePinkSuperhero 04 January | 12:51

Yeah, mere promiscuity, meh. I think it's a good thing - it's that whole "guys can't be sluts" deal that gets under my skin.

/Unites with jrossi4r

posted by tr33hggr 04 January | 12:53

I feel up the sluttiness on crowded subways.

posted by danostuporstar 04 January | 12:53

It's an ugly word to look at. But I can't think of one that looks prettier.

How I feel about sluttiness is that I think it's very good. As long as you're not hurting anyone else and all the usual disclaimers. Hell, I was the girl who used to sleep with her new male friends just to get the inevitable out of the way.

Guys can't be sluts? Sure they can. Wouldn't want y'all to miss out on the fun.

posted by gaspode 04 January | 12:55

Actually in truth, I need to become a little more slutty (on the advice of my spiritual mentor, the wife of my pastor- no, really).

posted by ThePinkSuperhero 04 January | 12:58

Yeah, mere promiscuity, meh.

Actually, mere promiscuity I have no problem with, although I don't participate. But whatever consenting adults want to do with their bodies is none of my business.

It's people who treat sex cheaply and lie to eachother or who don't show consideration for thei partners, who are cheap and slutty. and that I can do without. And you can be promiscous without being cheap. I've never managed it (I'm too much of a good Catholic boy at heart), but I guess some people have.

posted by jonmc 04 January | 12:58

Do you mean like healthy open mindedness about sex and a certain lassez-faire attitude about where boners go or sleeping with people because that is the only way to get them to like you?

One is good and one is sad, they fuck you up your mom and dad.

posted by Divine_Wino 04 January | 13:00

I think I would define sluttiness as overt promiscuity as opposed to discreet. A slut then would be girl who wears too much cheap makeup and three-sizes-too-small clothes that are already revealing to begin with and who brags about her "conquests."

I see nothing wrong with discreet promiscuity (and in fact will probably be practicing it on a trip I will take in the near future). I think discretion is becoming a lost art.

posted by LunaticFringe 04 January | 13:01

to whom are you directing your question, wino?

posted by gaspode 04 January | 13:02

you being one, not you being any one of you... (sorry gaspode, I was asking D. Dame Damerson, to refine her terms and stating my opening postion at the same time, then I did the whole stupid street corner NYC public school
"you" when I should have said "one" thing and there we go.)

Promiscuity doesn't work for me, but I sure do ecourage everyone to keep trying to be happy in whatever consensual way that they can.

posted by Divine_Wino 04 January | 13:06

I like the word "slut." It's kind of guttural and dirty. I've never dressed provocatively and never bedded someone in the hope that they'd like me. But I was utterly slutastic in my pre-married life and have zero regrets.

posted by jrossi4r 04 January | 13:06

dame, I too would like a definition of what you actually mean by your question. I'm more or less an old-fashioned guy so I actually prefer casual masturbation to casual sex. Is that what you meant?

posted by keijo 04 January | 13:08

I don't know what I mean Wino. (And it's Dr. Dame Dameson.) I'm just working on that stupid book I hate still and figured you guys could entertain me with your opinions. It means whatever you want it to mean!

posted by dame 04 January | 13:08

I feel really bad if I sleep with someone just to sleep with someone. So I'm not a fan of sluttiness. I don't think getting into the sack quickly is slutty, if you're not being disingenous to just get a piece. I also don't think a woman that is assertive about her sex drive is a slut.

posted by sciurus 04 January | 13:09

Although I think it's funny to (a) put together dressing all whore-y and being indiscreet about conquest, because I've rarely seen that, and (b) talk about fucking people so they like you because I've never known a better way to make a normal boy act like an asshole than to fuck him.

posted by dame 04 January | 13:10

HHAHAHAHAHHAA!

posted by ThePinkSuperhero 04 January | 13:12

i always wanted to be a slut.

posted by quonsar 04 January | 13:15

do it q!

posted by mcgraw 04 January | 13:16

And it's Dr. Dame Dameson.

Didn't you used to edit the Daily Planet?

I digress.

I wouldn't equate the way people dress or frankness with cheapness. And I'm not trying to preach to anybody, just saying why I choose to do waht I do. I'm no angel-some cute girl smiles at me on the subway or flirts with me in a chatroom and I'm as tempted as anybody else. It isn't always easy but I back off from the precipice, because I know that I (and more importantly the others in my life) aren't equipped to handle what comes along with giving into that temptation. YMMV.

I've never known a better way to make a normal boy act like an asshole than to fuck him.

That's because when it comes to sex and attractivess, men are much more insecure than women, contrary to popular belief. Sometimes just knowing that someone wants to have sex with you is as good as sex (and I dearly love sex).

posted by jonmc 04 January | 13:16

Uh, no, jon, I don't think that's it.

posted by dame 04 January | 13:21

A woman I used to know would say "I'm fast and loose, but not easy."

She also used to say "Don't do anything I wouldn't do more than once."

posted by matildaben 04 January | 13:22

perhaps not, but I still think it's true enough.

posted by jonmc 04 January | 13:23

Legal counsel advises me not to participate in this discussion, as I long to make statements that will incriminate myself.

posted by rainbaby 04 January | 13:25

It doesn't make sense, jon. But then again, the rest of your answer doesn't really answeer my question either.

posted by dame 04 January | 13:27

I've been the nice guy turned asshole [ARGH] and I can't even really explain why that happens. It might just be projected self-hate. But I dunno.

posted by sciurus 04 January | 13:28

Like I said, I'm still waiting for a working definition of 'sluttiness.' I'm not trying to start a fight, but it's a word that means different things to different people, so I want to know what I'm offering an opinion on.

posted by jonmc 04 January | 13:29

*pokes rainbaby with a stick*

Pleeaasee? I let you beat me, after all.

posted by danostuporstar 04 January | 13:31

Quonsar, you are a slut alreday :)

posted by keijo 04 January | 13:31

It might just be projected self-hate.

Oh, boo-hoo. No excuses, boys (not you, sciurus; boys in general)- JUST DON'T BE AN ASSHOLE. It's not that hard. Call, be nice, be friendly. Everyone has problems, so whenever ANYONE blames their problems on their baggage or whatever it makes me screeeeam. Take responsibility for yourselves, please.

{/rant}

posted by ThePinkSuperhero 04 January | 13:31

Well, jon, I know that it means lots of things to lots of people. That's why I left it like that silly. Because to some people it just means promiscuity and to some people it means indiscreet promiscuity or "cheapness" (whatever that is). But I'm just wondering.

posted by dame 04 January | 13:33

I was kind of slutty in college but I went to college after coming out of my first relationship that was terribly abusive and so my idea of normal relationship behavior was fucked up.

I was never comfortably with it. Got kind of a reputation (which in retrospect was unfair. I didn't sleep with that many people. The problem was that most were my guy friends and often friends with each other).

Anyway, the point is I was doing it for the wrong reasons and it wasn't good then.

NOW, if I wasn't head over heels in love -- I'd be all for it! Well, part of me would be totally neurotic but after the fact and only on my own (smacking forehead WHAT WAS I THINKING!!!)

But you gotta be the type of person that can handle it and not fall for someone and/or beat yourself up when they don't fall for you. I have a very slutty friend who sleeps with guys the night she meets them and then becomes a regular sex partner. The problem, so to speak, happens when she starts to expect them to treat her with the admiration and respect of someone more than a fuck buddy.

Not a lot of guys will do that, no matter what they say, once you've slept with them after knowing them one night.

And those who tell you differently are a rare breed or liars.

posted by Lola_G 04 January | 13:33

Seriously. As a guy, and having encountered the guys who exhibit this behavior, 75% of the time it's "I got what I came for, and now she wants WHAT?"

posted by selfnoise 04 January | 13:34

I think, for our purposes, "slut" refers to a woman who likes sex and engages in it frequently without the need for, or expectation of, a commitment or relationship. How's that?

posted by jrossi4r 04 January | 13:36

"cheapness" (whatever that is).

when it comes to sexuality, I'd say cheapness is treating sex like nothing, like a body function (not accusing anyone of this, merely defining my terms). An encounter with someone, even just a makeout session at a party means something even if it's just momentary infatuation. Not everything has to be a glorious beautiful love affair, but I've had all kinds of encounters, and they all meant something to me. To cheap people, they mean nothing.

I think, for our purposes, "slut" refers to a woman who likes sex and engages in it frequently without the need for, or expectation of, a commitment or relationship. How's that?

By that definition, jrossi4r, I have no problem with sluttiness, even if it's not my cup of tea.

posted by jonmc 04 January | 13:38

I used to be a slut at Arizona State but it couldn't last. Or does five different girls (four of whom were friends) in the same week not count?

And yes, that was a very, very good week!

Dang you, MeCha, quit being so darned interesting!

posted by fenriq 04 January | 13:40

An encounter with someone, even just a makeout session at a party means something even if it's just momentary infatuation. Not everything has to be a glorious beautiful love affair, but I've had all kinds of encounters, and they all meant something to me. To cheap people, they mean nothing.

Well put, jonmc! That's why I hate the term "hook-up" (read Wendy Shalit's "Return to Modesty" for a great explaination of this; it was the origin of my hating this term)- so trite, so devoid of meaning. It's a term that I generally refuse to use.

posted by ThePinkSuperhero 04 January | 13:43

I feel that playing a game just to sleep with someone is self-destructive behavior, mainly because of how bad I've felt the times I've done it. The assholery comes about when I want to forget what I've done as fast as possible, thus the cold shoulder, no phone calls and general disinterest. It might not be nice, but at that point I'm acting in my own self-interest, because maintaining the farce would be even more destructive.

I'm not saying it mitigates the emotional toll on the other party or is even ethically tenable. I think what is needed is a way to shag casually without the repercussions or at least an honorable way to bow out. I sure as hell don't know a way in which to do that, and I bet the other nice guys that become asses don't either. Better yet, not putting myself in that kind of situation in the first place is the better route for me.

And crap, I have to go to the doctor now, so I will be unable to continue this conversation until tomorrow. I love you MetaChat in a non-slutty way!

posted by sciurus 04 January | 13:43

Sluttiness can be attractive, but in the end I never go for it. It's a nice compliment when a woman indicates interest, but if she gives the impression she's not all that picky it's kind of a buzzkill. A number of women have told me that it's true for them, too -- (switching to the singular) she likes it when a guy shows he's interested, but only if she can take it personally.

posted by George_Spiggott 04 January | 13:44

I think perhaps a good new definition of decadence would be "devoid of meaning" Good show to TPS and jonmc for teasing that out.

posted by sciurus 04 January | 13:45

That's why I hate the term "hook-up"

Me too. and me and you are the furthest things from prudes, but like I said all sexual interaction means something, and to treat it otherwise is dishonest, IMHO.

(I likes Shalit's book too, by the way.)

posted by jonmc 04 January | 13:51

(That book is one of the top ten most influential books in my life. Although there are parts I really disagree with- specifically the whole section on antidepressents, which I find out of left-field and offensive to someone coming from a generally mentally ill family :-D )

posted by ThePinkSuperhero 04 January | 13:53

See, this is interesting. We have say this definition of slut from jrossi4r, which is close to what I think:

I think, for our purposes, "slut" refers to a woman who likes sex and engages in it frequently without the need for, or expectation of, a commitment or relationship.

and then there's this from selfnoise

Seriously. As a guy, and having encountered the guys who exhibit this behavior, 75% of the time it's "I got what I came for, and now she wants WHAT?"

which dovetails with my experience of the asshole phenomenon, ie, that many men confuse "remaning friends" with "wanting something." Which is really really odd to me. It's like other disconnects I've noticed in men, where they can seem to understand something and yet not really manage to act in a manner that belies that. It really baffles me.

Disclaimer: This is not true for all men and can be true for many women. It is an anecdotal observation of a pattern that clearly does not apply to you.

And then there's the jon/superhero *it must mean something* angle. God you people and your silliness about sex.

posted by dame 04 January | 13:56

And then there's the jon/superhero *it must mean something* angle.

what's so silly about it? I consider my sexuality (and my emotions) valuable, so I don't give them away cheaply. Even my flirtations have feeling behind them.

posted by jonmc 04 January | 13:58

Not that it *must* mean something, but that it does.

posted by ThePinkSuperhero 04 January | 13:59

bingo, TPS! Whether we like it or not, sharing sexuality (of any kind with someone) says something to them.

posted by jonmc 04 January | 14:00

Well then, suppose there are two common types of women who engage in slutty behavior.

Those who are slutty because it gives them attention from men. (This was me trying to be mature sexually by having no-strings attached relationships). I thought it was sexy in a Robin Givens Boomerang type of way. Turns out I WAS AN IDIOT. And many cute boys were willing to comply with my needs but the attention I ultimately got SUCKED and I got labeled a slut.

Then there are those who just like sex and like variety (cause your venturing out of your safe fuck buddy realm). Forgive the reference but I gather this is the Samantha Jones (sex and the city). This is some sort of demi-God that can handle the no feeling. No commitment. No attachments. I don't know how you do it but more power to you.

OH and don't forget the drunk sluts! Those who get really horny and slutty from the drink. That's got to make up another common type.

posted by Lola_G 04 January | 14:05

This is very interesting.

As much as I want to share in this discussion, I won't, because, basically, I don't trust you guys as a whole. Not that I want to, or why should I expect that kind of trust - that's not any kind of indictment! This place is great.

But even talking about the subject is meaningful to me (like jonmc/TPS are saying) - even though my philosophy/behaviors are contrary to what they have chosen.

posted by rainbaby 04 January | 14:06

I guess to me what it mean is I like rolling around naked with you. Which is more than liking going to the zoo with you but certainly not massively important.

But anyway, the silliness thing wasn't just you two but the interplay between everything. And maybe that isn't the right word. i dunno, there's something there that I'm having difficulty articulating.

posted by dame 04 January | 14:06

do it q!

≡ Click to see image ≡
don'tcha wish yer girlfriend was hot like me?
≡ Click to see image ≡

posted by quonsar 04 January | 14:08

It means whatever you want it to mean!

slut (v.:slutted, slutting)-to partially cut open and de-seed a butternut squash, take a dump inside, and replace the cut off piece, all while the squash remains attached to the vine. Done properly, the squash will eventually heal, trapping the feces like a fly in amber.

Well I certainly don't approve of that.

posted by PinkStainlessTail 04 January | 14:08

I guess to me what it mean is I like rolling around naked with you.

which is still something. I've met some women where I could've been replaced by a stiff dick nailed to a 2-by-4. That I could do without.But in your scenario, there's still a personal connection, even if it's purely physical. The cheap ones are people who treat it like a workout or a commodity.

posted by jonmc 04 January | 14:10

Hmm. Hefty topic for a Wednesday afternoon.

I "went slut" after I broke up with my first boyfriend/lover/guy who ever paid attention to me. I flirted with bisexuality and did a whole lot of dangerous things. I broke hearts, ruined friendships and gained an interesting reputation amongst the friends who were still around after I finished going through this phase.

I regret the things I did, but at the same time, I wouldn't exchange those experiences for anything. In addition to being great fodder for SMUT PEDDLER, it was fun and I learned a whole lot of things that many of my current and former lovers really appreciate.

My favorite essay on sluttiness is "Be a Slut!" from MISTRESS RUBY TIES IT TOGETHER. I like it because it reinforces how I feel about sex (and porn, and domination) in that healthy people can have lots of it, but if you even feel as if you're not having it for healthy reasons, you shouldn't.

And the funny thing is that despite my sexual history and background, I'm currently single by choice because I know I'm not in the right frame of mind to date or cat around. Okay, maybe I'll start dating again. Not having sex is bad for my mental health.

posted by TrishaLynn 04 January | 14:12

Yeah, my personal definition of slut, given that I have referred to myself as a slut frequently, is in line with the jrossi4r meaning. That said, I can't imagine an encounter devoid of *anything*. So I see where you're coming from, jon.

One thing, which was interesting to me... jon said:

I'm no angel-some cute girl smiles at me on the subway or flirts with me in a chatroom and I'm as tempted as anybody else. It isn't always easy but I back off from the precipice, because I know that I (and more importantly the others in my life) aren't equipped to handle what comes along with giving into that temptation. YMMV.

But you are in an (I am pretty sure) monogamous relationship, right? Me too. Guy flirts with me, I will flirt back, but I'll shut down anything else immediately. But I don't think that you can put a choice to remain monogamous into a conversation about sluttiness - they are different animals. There is more of this thought here, but I'm not sure I can write it out properly.

I like your categories, lola. I *think* I fall into the second one. I have definitely had fuck buddies (and that's a word I don't like) without any problems -- hell one of them I am still close friends with 10 years later, and he did a reading at my wedding (flew in from London for it, too).

*thinks some more about this*

posted by gaspode 04 January | 14:13

I think above everything, and like most things in life, you just have to be okay with what you are doing. The problem I see with it (myself ten years ago - OMG I'm old) and my friends now is that they can't have it without meaning or attachment.

So many want to be that carefree but rarely are they capable of pulling it off.

If you can, you enjoy it and you're not hurting yourself or anyone else. Go for it and everyone else be dammed.

Though I characterized one of my best friends as a slut -- I don't judge her for that. I do judge her when she sleeps with a married man but that is totally different.

We being a smart lovely bunnylicious society are not throwing out the judgment that pervades this whole notion in the "real world" and that is whats got to go.

posted by Lola_G 04 January | 14:20

gaspode: I don't like the term "fuck buddy" either, so me and my friends started calling them "boink bunnies." No lie.

posted by TrishaLynn 04 January | 14:33

I've been slutty and I've been celibate. Slutty is much more fun.

posted by sisterhavana 04 January | 14:45

I don't like the term either. I always used "fling" or in some cases "default," as in "We were each other's Saturday night default for awhile."

Islands in the Stream, that is what we are...

posted by jrossi4r 04 January | 14:49

The discussion here is interesting, I think I'll go ahead and jump into the fray.

While this has been touched upon to a degree, I'm going to go ahead and do the whole bull in a china shop thing anyway.

The term "slut" is used to scare women from enjoying their sexuality. There has been a lot of third-wavey reclaiming of the term lately. But I have to say that when I hear someone deride another person as a slut, they are usually denouncing someone who is young, female and enjoying their sexuality.

Conversely, there is the whole "male slut" idea, which people throw around (not as much as 'man whore' though). But using a qualifier like that generally requires the understanding that "slut" is inherently female.

This doesn't mean I haven't used the word at all. I just don't like it. I think I've used it only in terms of pop singers who claim virginal status and then dance on live tv with nothing but a patch of glitter covering their cooches.

To say that someone is a slut because they don't need a huge emotional bond to enjoy a physical act is just silly. Yeah, sex is better when you like/love/care for the person. But just like a backrub, sex can still be awesome from someone you don't like/love/respect/know.

/rant

posted by SassHat 04 January | 14:59

And just like a backrub, sex can still be awesome from someone you pay, too.

posted by Hugh Janus 04 January | 15:02

Hey, don't rip on Britney circa 2000. Anything Federline era is fair game, however.

/dork pop music fan.

posted by Lola_G 04 January | 15:06

sasshat: I'll agree with you with some caveats. I'll never have sex with someone I'm indifferent to. At the same time, I will have sex with someone I like as a friend or have a huge crush on, but could probably not be in a relationship with. If that makes me a slut... well then.

posted by TrishaLynn 04 January | 15:33

Aw hell, I had a 6 month sex fling with someone I actively disliked. He was amazing in bed. And very hot.

Interacted with him maybe once afterwards (we finished up just before graduation). Didn't make me feel bad about myself at all. Still look back on that sex as some of the best.

posted by gaspode 04 January | 15:38

Hmm. I understand where jonmc's coming from because I share his sentiments. I personally am uncomfortable with sex for the sake of sex. I couldn't be physically intimate with someone I didn't care about, nor would I want to be with someone who didn't care about me. And I can attest that having sex fucked up perfectly good friendships for me.

I think it's cool/healthy for people to have varying regard for sex, as long as they don't force their viewpoint on anyone else as the be-all end-all gospel. As long as all parties consent, no harm done.

That being said, I do believe that people's attitudes change over time, and that things like 3-somes are not likely to be lifetime commitments. I'm not condemning anyone who chooses that arrangment - it's not something I could handle. I just believe that human nature lends itself to feelings growing one way or another, and I don't see how that can't happen in a multiple partner situation. I only know of a few people engaging in multiple partner r-ships, and they all went the same route. I did hear of a 13 year long 3 person r-ship.

[scratches head, moves on to next thread]

posted by chewatadistance 04 January | 16:20

before anything else, i have to say this is possibly the most cogent, well done discussion i've read on mecha and i thank sasshat for bringing up the terminology issue.
i love it when i'm redundant.

posted by ethylene 05 January | 19:56

04 January 2006