We got a card with "happy holidays" crossed out and "merry chirstmas" written in! Like the Christians are reclaiming the holiday or something? Umm, I thought we moved to "happy holidays" because it was, you know, inclusive. But was there a part of our great national history that I was too young to note, where people responded to "merry christmas" with "fuck you you insensitive pig, I don't celebrate christmas" instead of. . .you know. . ."thank you?" Did I miss this? Cause this is crazy.

It's a Fox News thing. Bill O'Reilly has been kind enough to tell the masses about the "war on Christmas" they knew nothing about. It's brilliant marketing. Well, from the perspective of a propagandist like O'Reilly, at least.

rainbaby: When I worked retail, if you were to say "merry Christmas" instead of "happy holidays," every 100th customer or so would point out that they weren't Christian. I never once had a customer be offended in any serious way. A couple might have gone to the offended state, if I had acted like an ass.

Thus, the first Christmas in which I worked (1990), I did the "merry Christmas" sometimes as I was hired right in the height of the Xmas rush. By the next Christmas, my boss was able to get to me before the rush and tell me that "happy holidays" was better, as it was more inclusive.

That's where this started, I suspect: Retailers not wanting to take that slim chance that someone giving them money could be offended by the assumption that they were Christian, and thus taking their money elsewhere. I'm sure there is a remote chance of that happening. It never happened when I worked retail.

And happy holidays is better, anyway. That captures the spirit of the season -- I want to wish good tidings to Christians, Jews, atheists, and everyone in between, which happy holidays does well. Merry Christmas is fine fore folks I know, if I know they are Christian or non-Christians that celebrate Christmas (like me). Happy holidays is better for non-Christian friends and strangers.

And Jesus is NOT "the reason for the season." He just got pasted onto existing celebrations to turn something pagan/non-Christian into something acceptably Christian. Because folks were NOT going to give up their winter celebration, no matter how appealing the religion.

Anyway, sorry, long rant.

I hate it when people tell me "Merry Christmas", since they clearly wouldn't wish me goodwill at any other time of the year and probably wouldn't even deign to urinate on my frozen corpse.

But after 24 years of hearing that crap every December, I tune it out, like every other non-Christian out there.

cmonkey, I'd urinate on your frozen pagan corpse.

(I mean, it's sort of like a posthumous baptism, right?)

every single Republican politican the other day was purposely saying "merry christmas" defiantly and challengingly on CNN--it was gross, and truly unChristian.

And happy holidays is better, anyway. That captures the spirit of the season -- I want to wish good tidings to Christians, Jews, atheists, and everyone in between, which happy holidays does well. Merry Christmas is fine fore folks I know, if I know they are Christian or non-Christians that celebrate Christmas (like me). Happy holidays is better for non-Christian friends and strangers.

Exactly. : >

did you see that meTa post?

rain, us Jews don't like being mistaken for Christians, and many of us do correct people, or we just respond "Happy Holidays" (which is politer and sends the same message, or used to).

The new "Merry Christmas" is all about telling amberglow and every other non-Christians that they're second-class citizens in America.

After all, reminding amberglow he doesn't belong is only a foretaste of what God has in store for amberglow, reasons a certain type of fundie: amberglow's going to Hell anyway, because he hasn't accepted Jesus as his Saviour.

I think when I have kids, our family will celebrate Saturnalia. Both involve a tree and gifts (and fall on dec 25).

This friend of mine summed it up pretty well.

It takes a christian to truly ruin Christmas.

Happy holidays everyone!

Merry Christmas, PinkStainlessTail, you old Savings and Loan!

On Jews and Negroes:

NIXON: But there are [unclear] -- Hiss was not a Jew. Very interesting thing. So few of those who engage in espionage -- are Negroes. ... In fact, very few of them become Communists. If they do, they like, they get into Angela Davis -- they're more the capitalist type. And they throw bombs and this and that. But the Negroes. -- have you ever noticed? ... Any Negro spies?

HALDEMAN: Not intellectual enough, not smart enough... not smart enough to be spies.

NIXON: The Jews -- the Jews are, are born spies. You notice how many of them are just in up to their necks?

HALDEMAN: A basic deviousness.

Happy Faint of Butt Day!

We are gathered round the Faint Of Butt™ brand Yule log now!

I found a great quote from this thread on another messageboard.

I like Ann Althouse's comments:

"You know, I've come to see the 'War on Christmas' fanatics as having a much worse effect on the spirit of the season than the bland folk who say 'Happy Holidays.' Personally, I like to say 'Merry Christmas,' but yesterday, when some shopkeepers said 'Happy Holidays' to me and I said 'Merry Christmas,' I had the disgusting feeling that we had just engaged in a political argument! If those 'War on Christmas' fanatics hadn't made such a big deal out of the seasonal greetings, I wouldn't have noticed anything. As I left the shop, I imagined the people talking about me: I guess she's some big FOXNews right-winger."

etymology of holidays == holy days

you pagans are fucked either way!

Yeaaaaaa holiday fucks for all the pagans!

"I hear they got Rudolph today," says me.
"No!" says Giblets. "Not Rudolph! With his unmatched dogfighting skills and his nose so bright he was invincible!"
"It's true," says me. "Zombie Judah Maccabee shot im down over the Island of Misfit Toys with his dreidel of doom."
"Damn you Hannukah!" says Giblets. "Will your eight days of madness never end!"
"Do you think Santa really has a secret plan to take the Kwanzaan capital an win the war?" says me.
"Of course he does!" says Giblets. "And once Christmas spreads to Kwanzaa it will inspire Hannukhan dissidents to rise up and overthrow their oppressive anti-Christmanian leadership, and from there Christmas will spread to Eid and New Years and Halloween and Arbor Day until every day is Christmas!" ...
(fafblog)

Yeah, rainbaby, it's at root a marketing move by FOX, using the most cynical Goebbels-style propaganda framing devices. It's a convenient cudgel against any corporation that FOX doesn't happen to like right now, since they can mobilize a lot of unhappy viewer/customers to complain and put that corporation on the defensive -- say, over advertising in gay publications. It also happens to coincide with certain things that the FOX demographic would rather not be discussing, so it's one huge motherfucking hand-wave.

People watching FOX think it's the most important thing happening right now (except for Iraqi election day, when that was the most important thing, but quickly forgotten since all the religious parties won). People who don't watch FOX are all, like, W.T.F.?

And in that sense it serves as the oldest trick in the book -- a shibboleth by which one may know one's compatriots.

Today in spin class a new spin instructor (who was subbing) wished each member of the class "merry christmas." One dude cheerily wished her "happy holidays" back-I'd guess he was Jewish. Didn't act huffy or offended.

Isn't the real truth that when people say Merry Christmas or Happy Holidays or Season's Greetings they are simply wishing goodwill on the other person? We get so caught up in words we forget the warm sentiments behind them. I get sick and tired of a world that goes forth and looks for things to be offended over. Plenty of real things in life to be offended about, why make more? (that goes for both camps, just to make it clear.)

nope--one is telling people to have a specifically Christian Holiday and the others are general wishes of goodwill.

and all the others don't assume that the person it's directed to shares their religion, and are thus inherently more respectful and general wishes of true goodwill.

Fox News host John Gibson (emphasis added)

...if somebody is going to be -- have to answer for following the wrong religion, they're not going to have to answer to me. We know who they're going to have to answer to.

And that's fine. Let 'em. But in the meantime, as long as they're civil and behave, we tolerate the presence of other religions around us without causing trouble, and I think most Americans are fine with that tradition.

Be civil and behave, Jew-boy, and we won't give you any trouble!

It's just Bush consolidating the sad tattered remainders of his base; bigoted, narrow-minded, joyless, uptight, easily manipulated nimrods that they are.

*contemplates these clowns doing the eternal dogpaddle in a lake of burning brimstone*

*smiles contentedly*

What? It's the winter solstice season? Let's eat!

There's also a history of attacks on Jews regarding Christmas--a long long and nasty history. (recent examples are Henry Ford: Henry Ford was sounding the alarm about the war on Christmas in his notorious 1921 tract “The International Jew.” “The whole record of the Jewish opposition to Christmas, Easter and other Christian festivals, and their opposition to certain patriotic songs, shows the venom and directness of [their] attack,” Ford wrote. He listed local outrages: “Christmas celebrations or carols in Philadelphia, Cincinnati, St. Paul and New York met with strong Jewish opposition … Local Council of Jewish Women of Baltimore petitions school board to prohibit Christmas exercises … The Council of the University Settlement, at the request of the New York Kehillah [Jewish leadership], adopts this resolution: ‘That in the holiday celebrations held annually by the Kindergarten Association at the University Settlement every feature of any sectarian character, including Christmas trees, Christmas programs and Christmas songs, shall be eliminated.’”
To compare today’s “war on Christmas” demagogues to Henry Ford is not to call them anti-Semites. Rather, they are purveyors of a conspiracy theory that repeatedly crops up in America. ... )

Just like rats, the Jews 2000 years ago moved from the Middle East to Egypt, at that time a flourishing land. Even then they had all the criminal traits they display today, even then they were the enemies of hard-working, creative peoples. In large hordes they migrated from there to the "Promised Land," flooded the entire Mediterranean region, broke into Spain, France, and Southern Germany, then followed the German colonists as they moved into the countries of the East. Along they way they remained eternal parasites, haggling and cheating. Poland above all became the enormous reservoir from which Jewry sent its agents to every leading nation of Europe and the world.

I can only talk as someone who's on the outside of all of this:

It's tempting when an odious tosser like O'Reilly starts forcefully taking up a position on anything to take a contrary position. I fully understand that. But come on guys, this is a total non-issue and once you start taking the opposing view on this, once you give the O'Reillyites something to kick against you give them credibility. Not much admitedly, but some.

I check This Modern World out semi-regularly, and poor old Tom has been going nuts on this non-issue. Quite frankly it makes him look a little crazy.

I dunno, this all just seems a little bit sad as nobody wins anything in this battle.

It's just so fucking offensive to see a safe, catered-to majority bullying minority groups.

And underneath it all, it's the same pogrom-for-personal-pundit-profit motivation that has killed millions f Jews for thosands of yesrs.

"Yes, we're glad our Christian children won't get polio, Dr. Salk, now hide that menorah if you know what's good for you."

I got a "business" letter from the accountants office I used last year that opened with,

To all our valued clients we join you in celebration of the birth of our saviour over two thousand years ago................

I almost threw up. Then I almost wrote them an "I am offended" letter. Then I decided they weren't worth the effort, that I wasn't going to give them any more business, and shredded the letter.

My Dad is a Methodist converted to reform Judaism over 25 years ago; my late Mom was Jewish. So technically I'm Jewish, although I have my own views of spirituality that are a mishmash of pagan, native American, Jewish, and just plain be-a-good-person-while-I-walk-this-planet kind of living.

Maybe I will make that the mission statement for the commune I form. heh.

pssst amberglow...Happy Hanukkah!

Yoga, you live in NORTH CAROLINA. You are gonna get letters like that here.

To put perspective on it, some Christians feel an impetus to put something like that in their business letters, as part of their faith practice. Since Judaism is a nonproseletizing faith, it might be harder for you to understand the pressure to do so.

yoga, definitely drop them. If any business is not smart enough to realize that their customers are not all Christians, they're not smart enough to get your business.

dodgy, it's not just some people ranting on tv--i've had a bunch of people this year go off about it in person--people i never would have thought were Fox viewers. Apparently, derision and cracks about "being pc" are the proper response this year to the actual fact that we're not all Christians.

One very good thing that's come of this "war"--i learned that back in 1905 and 1906, thousands and thousands of Jewish kids boycotted the Public Schools here because we were being proselytized and forced to sing Christian hymns in public schools, and to write about Christ--...Displeased by Stern’s response, on the weekend of December 22-23, 1906, the Yiddishes Tageblatt newspaper called for a Jewish student boycott of Brownsville’s public schools on Monday, December 24th, a day devoted strictly to closing exercises before the Christmas vacation. The Tageblatt called the proposed boycott a "battle for civil rights." The New York Times reported that between 20,000 and 25,000 children, one third of the school population of Brownsville, missed school that Monday. The Tageblatt’s headline triumphantly proclaimed, "Empty Schools: Tens of Thousands of Jewish Children Shun the Christmas Tree." The boycott succeeded.

Two weeks later, the citywide Elementary School Committee issued a report recommending that the schools ban the singing of hymns and the assignment of essays on sectarian themes during Christmas. ...

(my family came in 06)

This has been such a hard holiday season. I have never felt such anti-semitism before, and it feels like the start of something that's only going to get worse. And a lot of it is coming from people too ignorant to know what they are saying. I was out to dinner the other night with a group of girlfriends I have known most of my life. When we paid the waiter, one of my friends said, "Merry Christmas!" to him. Then, to us, she said, "I'm not going to stop saying 'Merry Christmas,' I don't care what anyone says." Who the fuck ever tried to stop you? Sure, it's thoughtless to assume that everyone celebrates Christmas, but the only people to ever make an issue about it were Christian conservatives on FOX News. But here I am, the Jewish girl who has obviously had no impact on my friend's sensitivity, thinking, "Who does she think is trying to stop her from saying 'Merry Christmas'? Has she even thought about it?" Because the implication is pretty clear. And that that kind of blind sheep ignorant following is dangerous and scary to me.

Here's a NY Times op-ed from today that mostly sums up how I'm feeling.

I should say, I have never felt such anti-semitism from others! I'm Jewish, not anti-semitic. Geez, that sentence was probably a bit unclear.

yup, amro...we're attuned to it in ways Christians aren't--and FOX and others have been explicitly blaming us Jews.

This Rich column from the 14th states it too--?Talking Points... The Christmas"defense" movement is starting to be openly anti-Semitic. The two people Mr. O'Reilly has demonized the most frequently on the issue are Jon Stewart, host of Comedy Central's "The Daily Show," and George Soros, the billionaire financier whom O'Reilly has called the "moneyman" behind the anti-Christmas movement. The New York Post, owned by Rupert Murdoch's News Corporation — the same company that owns Fox News — recently put a story on its front page under the headline "Treeson" about a Jewish town supervisor from Long Island who tried to keep Christian prayers out of a government-sponsored tree-lighting ceremony.
Charges that Jews are behind the "War on Christmas" are beginning to be made directly. The president of Liberty Counsel, a conservative religious group, stated on Fox last year that a Florida mayor was conducting a vendetta against a nativity scene at least partly because he "apparently is Jewish." When a Jewish caller to Mr. O'Reilly's radio show objected to Christmas in the schools, and said that he "grew up with a resentment because I felt that people were trying to convert me to Christianity," Mr. O'Reilly responded. "If you are really offended, you gotta go to Israel." ...

yeah, amberglow, I dropped them like a hot potato. Ran into that same thing with some realtors, too. [rolls eyes] y'all wanna join my commune?! I think we should also have some specialists in hydroponic gardening.

Sure, it's thoughtless to assume that everyone celebrates Christmas, but the only people to ever make an issue about it were Christian conservatives on FOX News.

I say merry Christmas a lot, but I'm not assuming the person I'm saying it to celbrates Christmas. It more of a "I'm going to be happy around the first week of January I hope you are too".

Mitheral, until this year, when someone has said "Merry Christmas" to me, I took it in the manner in which it was intentioned - as a show of goodwill. It has never, ever bothered or offended me. However, I have always appreciated when people have said something more inclusive, like "Happy Holidays," because it is a recognition that not everyone celebrates Christmas. If you say "Merry Christmas" to me, I have to assume you think I am Christian.

But really, until this year I haven't given it a ton of thought. Suddenly, holiday greetings are political statements. I still try to assume that everyone is well-intentioned, but on the other hand it's not exactly paranoid of a Jew to be fearful of insidious antisemitism.

Hey Mitheral, are you Ukrainian? Me too (well, American obviously, but my family is from Ukraine from my grandparents on back).

but on the other hand it's not exactly paranoid of a Jew to be fearful of insidious antisemitism.

Or as amberglow notes, explicit anti-semitism.

Among other things. My family has never been really, uh, selective. It'd be pretty tough for me to be racist without ending up burning a cross on my own front lawn or something :).

I identify strongly with Ukrainian christmas even though I'm not orthodox in any other way. I think it is because as a kid it allowed for an extra two weeks of celebrating while we visted the orthodox side of the family; plus the food was the best of the whole season.

But come on guys, this is a total non-issue and once you start taking the opposing view on this, once you give the O'Reillyites something to kick against you give them credibility.

I kind of agree with dodgygeezer here (I'm also a Brit, been in the US for 9 years or so). You've got to go after O'Reilly, not Xmas. It's gone from the (alleged Jewish conspiracy) 'War on Xmas' to O'Reilly's 'War on the War on Xmas' to this thread's 'War on the War on the War on Xmas.' The 'Christmas is an anti-semitic festival' angle is just going to make a load of people go 'So what are those Jews up to now?' and confirm whatever prejudices they already have (and I would bet that some of those involved in this have already thought about that). FWIW I was baptised Christian but I've celebrated Holi (India), Ramadan (Morocco), Losar (Himalayas), Solstice (Stonehenge), and have Christian and Muslim relatives - and have always been made to feel welcomed, and not threatened, by that.

The 'Christmas is an anti-semitic festival' angle is just going to make a load of people go 'So what are those Jews up to now?' and confirm whatever prejudices they already have

Wait, who is saying Christmas is an antisemitic festival? Do you think people here are saying that? If so, you are really misinterpreting. If not, where are you seeing this "Christmas is an anti-semitic festival" angle?

You've got to go after O'Reilly, not Xmas.

Uh, okay. Now who is going after Christmas, again?