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Ask them if when the rapture comes do they get raptured right out of their underpants or do those go with them? If they go up naked, doesn't that seem kind of naughty? They should make sure it's really heaven and not some kind of scam (for instance if Saint Peter just wants them to touch it, just once). If they do go up with there underpants, do they wear something special?

posted by Divine_Wino 10 November | 16:29

REPENT YE WHORE OF BABYLON!

posted by sciurus 10 November | 16:31

What? Don't they know the rapture happened in 1948? What are they still doing here? Preterite ninnies.

posted by warbaby 10 November | 16:44

y'know, as long as they stay out of politics and don't ask me to agree with some of they're kookier beliefs (which of course they do), I don't really mind fundies. In fact I'm kind of drawn to them. They may be rather over the top, but so much of modern secular culture* is either dry-as-a-bone or toxically ironic, that it almost seems refreshing.

(*rock and roll is the major exception, but it's always had one foot in some kind of church anyway)

posted by jonmc 10 November | 16:44

Am I alone in my belief that people who believe in the rapture and drive cars are sociopaths?

posted by PinkStainlessTail 10 November | 16:55

You wouldn't say that if you had much contact Jon. I've been told I'm going to hell so many times I can't even count. It's equally toxic. You've said it yourself, the problem is fundimentalism of any stripe. I like nice easygoing churchies however.

Am I alone in my belief that people who believe in the rapture and drive cars are sociopaths?

If they are really committed they keep a sinner in the shotgun seat to grab the wheel, just in case. It's the dominionist version of a Shabbos Goy.

posted by Divine_Wino 10 November | 16:57

You could always hit them with a dose of office poltergeist...

posted by cobra! 10 November | 17:05

We Christians aren't even in full agreement re the end times.

I don't think I believe in a "pre-trib rapture" fwiw...at the end of the school year I will be able to tell you why, as I am sure it will be on my second-semester Theology final.

posted by bunnyfire 10 November | 17:12

If death comes to mankind, cubicles are certainly a sign of the impending.

posted by Peter H 10 November | 17:14

You wouldn't say that if you had much contact Jon. I've been told I'm going to hell so many times I can't even count.

I've had my share. And you forget I was raised by a fairly devout immigrant Catholic mother. And I've gotten the hell-pass (or been told freinds were on their way) both in person and on TV and the 'Net for a variety of offenses. But still I find them vaguely endearing (at least some of the pew warmers, anyway), like the night of this experience. They did yell wildly after pointing me to the restroom, since I accidently walked into the deacons office. That could've been embarassing. And I've had a few freinds who've been involved in this kind of stuff, too. And the mrs. has a cousin who went to israel and suddenly became extremely orthodox. And I've had wiccan freinds, too. And they brought a "charismatic Catholic," preist to the school my mom teaches at, who did the whole laying on f hands shtick, which got my mom all enthused. So I've had all kinds of weird input when it comes to religion. Plus, I have my own appolonian/dionysian duality to work through like anyone else. (although my dad never went to church except for holidays, weddings and the like. too many memories of knuckle-slapping nuns from his Irish Catholic childhood, and by 15 i was sneaking out of mass to smoke pot with similarly mass-forced Catholic buddies)

And don't misunderstand me, I decry the damage fanatics of all stripes have done in the world. I'm just kind of drawn to the culture and some of the people in and surrounding it. Sort of like people who collect Nazi paraphenalia or Soviet propoganda posters.

posted by jonmc 10 November | 17:16

Dig it babes, I usually have an easier time with your nuttier Catholics myself, they scare me, but it's a nice familiar kind of scared.

posted by Divine_Wino 10 November | 17:24

Also, remember my rock and roll fanaticsm; much of the music I love is completely infused with the tension/familiarity between the spiritual and carnal. Plus I did a tour through AA, sitting in rooms filled with White Tom Potenzas (the Price fans will get that reference), which gives you a glimpse into the dynamics of a different spiritualty from the one often peddled. And there's also my well known habit of getting liquored up and listening to old gospel records.

posted by jonmc 10 November | 17:26

On seeing your last posts: Catholics and Jews have a better grip on the carnal/spiritual thing. Jews have holidays in which it's considered a mitzvah to get riproaring schnockered, and us Catholics? We can drink, smoke, gamble and screw as long as we fell guilty and confess later, and there's definitely more sensuality(for lack of a better word) running through Catholic culture. Possibly since we're drawn from more sensually comfortable cultures (Irish, Latin, Southern & Eastern European) than the Protestants.

posted by jonmc 10 November | 17:32

Catholics are also more pagan. And ruled by their own government.

posted by Peter H 10 November | 17:37

Did anyone catch Trading Spouses last night? No? I'm not sure if it was a re-run or not.

My GF and I were just flipping channels and suddenly there's this crazy-scary lady flipping her shit way the fuck out past like fuckin' Pluto. It was all "I AM A SPIRITUAL WARRIOR" this and "NO DARK SIDE IN MY HOUSE" that and "witches and pagans and psychics, oh holy shit not in my house!", all screamed at impossibly shrieking levels.

It was just so over the top we didn't even realize that we were watching Trading Spouses, of all things. For like five minutes of this sheer terror of a tantrum thrown by a supposedly grown woman we were just awestruck and speechless.

I mean, I've seen fundamentalists flip out, and I've seen plenty of TV evangelist fire and brimstone sermons, but nothing, nothing like this. I'm frankly totally blown away that they were showing this on primetime network broadcast.

All we saw was the latter portion of this freak out. The only think we could figure out was that the other household was, y'know, multicultural and kind of pagan-esque or something. There were some references in the midst of the tantrum like the visiting mom had a summer solstice party or something. It was like watching someone get attacked and mauled nearly to death by an invisible bear. She even tore up the envelope with the $20,000 check the visiting spouse leaves to be spent as they've outlined and chosen.

That show and shows like it normally make me crawl out of my skin, but I need to find a bittorrent of that episode, it was freakin' surreal.

posted by loquacious 10 November | 17:38

The past two weeks of Trading Spouses (the entire "Xtian Warrior" episodes) has been among the best television I've seen in ages. Not since "Dave" on Paradise Hotel have I been so impressed.

posted by Peter H 10 November | 17:42

Ah, here's a recap! Who knew such an antiquated broadcast company like Fox would have a new-fangled webpage thingy. Huzzah!

http://www.fox.com/tradingspouses/recaps/202.htm

And a torrent:

http://www.mininova.org/tor/150310

posted by loquacious 10 November | 17:44

Yeah Jon,

I have 8 years of (admittedly Quaker) seminary (I used to tutor the bible, the bible as literature, but still the bible). Real deal religious education (free thinking, mild-ass but religious) education. I come from two families, one very Catholic, one very Lutheran, I've got religion coming at me from all over, and I often dig it or at least try to understand it. People who belive in the actual real end times and a certain strain of Baptist wackjob that I've had too many run ins with really get my goat. My devil goat.

You should go to Ireland sometime, I wouldn't say the Irish (here or there) are sensual, passionate and emotional sure, hedonistic, sorta, but sensual, not as compared to the mediterranian catholics. I've met many uptighteroos in my times in Ireland and my times with the Irish(ish) here. I do think there is an honesty about the conflict between the culture and compulsions in the Irish, which leads to those balls out kinda cut loosings that are so well known to legend. Those are good.

Bunnyfire: No disrespect, I also know some very level headed and accepting Southern baptists, they tend to be fringy though.

posted by Divine_Wino 10 November | 17:52

I've caught the ads for that Trading Spouses thing. That woman's not just a religious fanatic, she's probably mentally ill as well. I'd also be lying if I said I had much use for the touchy-feely tip-toe-through-the-tulips new ager presented as her opposite, either.

posted by jonmc 10 November | 18:04

wino: maybe the Irish aren't so much "sensual," like the Italians or the Spaniards (to use very broad generalizations), but they do seem to understand the duality of our drives.

Side things (in quotes mainly):

David Foster Wallace once said that people tend to be wildly diverse in their higher noble interests and drives, and remarkable similar in their dumb, prurient ones. I think ol' DFW was dead on with that.

Douglas Coupland said that human beings are endowed with deep religious instincts, but the question is, in today's world where is there for those instincts to go. In some people they go to politics, others to art, other sto fandom of some sort, still others to loyalty to some other worldly institution.

posted by jonmc 10 November | 18:09

Jon: yeah, totally.

Yup, give me bitter ex-catholics, jaded hippies who had to get real jobs and honestly conflicted wanderers any day. It's my constituency.

"Life is really weird and beautiful, somebody put on Rum, Sodomy and the Lash, Who wants a sandwich and do we have enough money for some more beers?"

Goodnight Darlings.

posted by Divine_Wino 10 November | 18:11

Yup, give me bitter ex-catholics, jaded hippies who had to get real jobs and honestly conflicted wanderers any day. It's my constituency.

No. That's my constituency. You get the fallen women and lepers. I thought we worked this all out at the bar, dude.

posted by jonmc 10 November | 18:15

What about me? Whose constituency am I? I'm a bitter ex-catholic, a jaded hippie who had to get a real job, an honestly conflicted wanderer (Okay, maybe not much of a wanderer, but conflicted? I have conflicted down.)AND a fallen woman. Also, I own two copies of Rum Sodomy & the Lash.

On top of all that, I've wondered about the abandoned post Rapture cars for a long time now.

posted by mygothlaundry 10 November | 18:28

I've caught the ads for that Trading Spouses thing. That woman's not just a religious fanatic, she's probably mentally ill as well.

Agreed, entirely. I'm not even for a moment considering Fox's treatment of this to be fair or balanced, even if it's supposedly swinging from my side of the boxing ring.

After reading that episode recap on the official site, it all leaves a bad taste in my mouth.

The woman obviously has mental issues outside of religion. She could just as be easily freaking out about Voudou or Wicca or simply going into OCD fugues about not putting the laundry away correctly.

I'd also be lying if I said I had much use for the touchy-feely tip-toe-through-the-tulips new ager presented as her opposite, either.

Yeah, y'know, I agree. I'd rather have someone genuinely angry at me than falsely all hypersensitive with me.

But that touchy-feely stuff has a valid social function. At least the new-ager didn't completely flip out at the mere idea of going to a Christian church, and actually went along with her to the church of her choice with at least something resembling an open mind or lack of sheer insanity and superstition, or at least a marked lack of panic and mortal concern.

Douglas Coupland said that human beings are endowed with deep religious instincts, but the question is, in today's world where is there for those instincts to go. In some people they go to politics, others to art, other sto fandom of some sort, still others to loyalty to some other worldly institution.

Word. Seriously. It seems like we're all fanatics in some form or another. Some of us just have hobbies.

posted by loquacious 10 November | 18:35

On top of all that, I've wondered about the abandoned post Rapture cars for a long time now.

To hell with the cars. I'm worried about the planes, nuclear power plants, missles on launch status and worse. What about the water supply? Power?

Oh holy crap, what about biological and chemical weapon stores!? WHAT ABOUT ALL THE MAD COWS?!

posted by loquacious 10 November | 18:38

On top of all that, I've wondered about the abandoned post Rapture cars for a long time now.

The Russian mob got salvage rights to 'em in a rigged contract bid. You snooze, you lose, sister.

posted by jonmc 10 November | 18:39

Heh. The Amazing Race: Family Edition has a team of crazy evangelicals, a recent widow and her three children. They do stuff like pray to Jesus to beat the other teams "if it be thy will." They tell everyone at every given opportunity that their dad was killed a year ago while cleaning up debris on a race track, while mocking people who sympathize. They also say stuff like, "We would prefer to be hated for who we are instead of being loved for who we are not." (Because apparently it is impossible for anyone to love them for who they are.) Plus the two teenage daughters run around in tank tops and short shorts.

Entertaining? You betcha!

posted by Secret Life of Gravy 10 November | 19:06

SLoG: we live in a world of incredibly mixed messages from all sides. No wonder we're all so fucked up.

Wait a minute, short-shorts and tank tops you say?

posted by jonmc 10 November | 19:08

Jonmc, you have to see it to believe it.

posted by Secret Life of Gravy 10 November | 19:49

Do they practice the laying on of hands?

posted by loquacious 10 November | 20:08

And I'm constantly surrounded by people who talk seriously about astrology and ESP and ghosts. All three of those subjects are as cringe-worthy to me as is Christian eschatology. Do you believe in, say, astrology? Because I'll laugh at you if you do, delmoi.

posted by kmellis 10 November | 20:37

Everybody's got their little hobbies, kmellis. They'd probably find some of my interests silly and cringeworthy. Who's to say? Life's to short. Hunting for reasons to write people only makes you lonely and isolated.

posted by jonmc 10 November | 20:41

I AM A PRAYER WARRIOR!!!!!!!!!!!!!

posted by Death Trip, Baby 10 November | 20:59

That XViD AVI for said Trading Spouses episode is almost done converting to VCD, 2 fricken hours later. It took less time to download the source file, damnit.

(First ever re-encode on this machine for easy DVD player playback. Too bad it wasn't just an mpeg, or too bad I don't have a codec-upgradeable DVD player. Or a proper media PC in the living room, or composite video output card, 'cause I've got a 50 foot RCA cable, no problem. Heh. I'll shut up now.)

posted by loquacious 10 November | 21:21

You know what's odd is that Christians believe god is all powerful, and omnipotent, but needs us to pray to him, worship him, and so on. All of that would make sense if god were limited in some way, limited in what he could do. A Limited god makes much more sense then an omnipotent god.

Two of the people involved in the conversation I deal with a lot, and they are both nice people, and reasonably bright, which is why it was so odd. The conversation was very intelligent. One of them, (and older woman) thought the Left Behind series was crap and heard that "It [was] like pornography" (and that's a bad thing, of course). She also doesn't vote, because she thinks all politicians are crooks, so no worries there.

But still, it was so disturbing hearing such intelligent people discussing something so utterly, utterly. absurd.

And remember, these weren't your run of the mill Catholics with a guilt complex, but full-on, biblical literalists, evangelical nut-bars.

And, I was trying to concentrate.

posted by delmoi 10 November | 22:17

In yeshiva I was taught that at the end of days my bones would roll all the way to Jerusalem! But when I asked my dad what happens after we die, he told me, (I'm paraphrasing here)
"that's it. There is no afterlife. You die, and the show's over."

I don't know about all you gentiles though. Maybe your bones don't roll so good.

posted by Edible Energy 10 November | 22:19

By the way, I'm not anti-religious at all, in my experience most Christians are nice people, and I understand it holds a lot of value for some people. Philosophically it bugs me, because it's just so silly but, oh well.

posted by delmoi 10 November | 22:19

Just yell "JESUS MOTHERFUCKING CHRIST! CAN I GET SOME GODDAMN QUIET IN HERE?!?!?"

posted by Edible Energy 10 November | 22:21

You know what's odd is that Christians believe god is all powerful, and omnipotent, but needs us to pray to him, worship him, and so on

Naah, He doesn't NEED us to do anything. He is what the theology book calls "self-sufficient."

And I know I am speaking for myself here, but worshipping Him is really, really fun.

posted by bunnyfire 10 November | 22:37

Holy shit. That Trading Spouses episode was intense. Just, wow.

There's a lot of obvious stuff I could say about the show, and the people in it, both pro and con, but it wouldn't be anything really nuanced or new.

But had I just seen segements of the show without the setup and explaination of the premise I never would have guessed I was watching Trading Spouses.

Sheesh, just look through my comment history here and on MeFi and note how often I say something like "That TV show was intense." Usually I'm outright preaching for the outright death of broadcast TV or something grating like that. I think the only series show I've ever really given a thumbs up to in public is the Trailer Park Boys.

posted by loquacious 10 November | 22:44

And I know I am speaking for myself here, but worshipping Him is really, really fun.

Somehow I always found church deadly dull, scriptures mostly irrelevant, and the doctrine illogical and restrictive.

Looking back on it though, I do think that prayer is a useful form of mental inventory and meditation. At least the way I was taught to pray. You list everything you're grateful for, and then you go over everything you're hoping for. I still do this sometimes in a non-religious way.

posted by agropyron 10 November | 23:39

I think the only series show I've ever really given a thumbs up to in public is the Trailer Park Boys.

Have you tried Arrested Development?

posted by agropyron 10 November | 23:40

oh come on,
Home Movies, Sealab 2021, Space Ghost, Harvey Birdman (attorney at law) The Daily Show, The Colbert Report. And Family Guy.

posted by Edible Energy 10 November | 23:46

Weeds was good, too.

And the surrealist stuff, be it Python or Spongebob or Muppets.

posted by Five Fresh Fish 11 November | 01:20

OK, Family guy is good, and so is Space Ghost. The Daily Show and The Colbert Report. Spongebob, ok. Arrested Development is all right, but nothing revolutionary.

But I wouldn't schedule time to watch them, nor would I be traumatized if they vanished. There's a fair amount of stuff I'd watch and sit still for, but very, very little I'd go out of my way for.

The uncensored, uncut Trailer Park Boys is sublime, unparalled mayhem, which you can't really get in here the States, so I guess that doesn't really count. But I have most of the uncensored Canadian episodes downloaded.

posted by loquacious 11 November | 01:39

Y'all have got to watch Dog the Bounty Hunter.

posted by deborah 11 November | 01:49

Errr... censored version? What do they censor? If it were bleeped, there'd sure as fuck wouldn't fucking be no fucking dialogue...

posted by Five Fresh Fish 11 November | 02:51

I've seen like one episode of arrested development.

Surrealism in television shows just bugs me, though, unless it's a cartoon. I don't know why, just does. On most shows, it's not so blatant (Things happened in sinefeild that could never happen in real life, especially towards the end of the series) but AD is just all about that type of thing (from what I saw). And it was boring too.

posted by delmoi 11 November | 12:13

10 November 2005