MetaChat - Refugee

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05 September 2005

Refugee →[More:]One who flees in search of refuge, as in times of war, political oppression, or religious persecution. An individual seeking refuge or asylum; especially an individual who has left his or her native country and is unwilling or unable to return to it because of persecution or fear of persecution (as because of race, religion, membership in a particular social group, or political opinion). An exile who flees for safety.

STOP CALLING THEM REFUGEES.

post by: quonsar at: 18:45 | 28 comments

No. You're wrong. An exile flees their country. A refugee seeks refuge. These people are seeking refuge. They are refugees.

posted by peacay 05 September | 18:51

Although I'll admit that 'refugees' as commonly used in the media usually refers to people leaving their country to seek refuge elsewhere. But this is semantics. Perhaps the best term would be evacuees.

posted by peacay 05 September | 18:53

Technically, they're not refugees. However, the word "refugee" is a lot shorter than "person displaced from their home and seeking refuge", so since everyone understands it, I'll keep using it.

posted by bugbread 05 September | 18:55

Webster's 11th says this:

one that flees; especially : a person who flees to a foreign country or power to escape danger or persecution

The word's simplest definition is that a refugee is one that flees. Works fine for me.

posted by interrobang 05 September | 18:57

No. You're wrong.

*I'M* wrong? i merely quoted the dictionary. you know, the big fat book where they explain what words mean? quoted it word for word.

posted by quonsar 05 September | 18:57

"It's a dragon up ahead, sir!"
"No it's more of a giant lizard!"
"Whatever, it's a monster!
"Actually I think 'apparition' would be more respectful."
"Oh dear, whatever he is, he's breathing fire. Oh my.."

*burns to crisp*

posted by jonmc 05 September | 18:58

Quick! Somebody spray Jonmc with some Life Juice!

posted by Secret Life of Gravy 05 September | 19:13

Hang in there jonmc! Bukkake Squad 4 is closing in on your position now!

posted by Armitage Shanks 05 September | 19:29

*puts on full body condom*

posted by jonmc 05 September | 19:30

If I give up on MeFi to post over here, does that make me a refugee?

posted by brainwidth 05 September | 19:39

No, it makes you sane.

posted by jonmc 05 September | 19:43

No. You're wrong. An exile flees their country. A refugee seeks refuge. These people are seeking refuge. They are refugees.
- peacay

People can seek refuge (safe place) in a store from a hail storm, but that doesn't make them refugees (exile fleeing from persecution).

While it may be argued that those attempting to return to NOLA might be shot, that does not make them exiles as the exile was not initiated for punishment but for safety.

posted by Feisty 05 September | 19:46

Where is Tom Petty when we need him?

posted by wendell 05 September | 20:59

probably firing up a fattie on his porch.

posted by jonmc 05 September | 21:01

Interestingly enough dictionary.com gives this version (after a couple of others)..

refugee
n : an exile who flees for safety
=============

"You're wrong" was a bit dismissive admittedly. But quonsar, you're talking tin tacks suggesting that people not use 'refugees' to apply to evacuees from NOLA. It's not like they're saying 'murderers' for 'intellectuals' or the like.

I may otherwise have to break out the OED (although Mo Nickels will likely chide me for not calling it the Concise Oxford Dictionary).

posted by peacay 05 September | 21:13

"Refugee" is a term of art in international law. As used in that context, a refugee is a person who (1) is outside his or her country; (2) has a well-founded fear of persecution because of race, religion, nationality, membership in a particular social group or political opinion; (2) and is unable or unwilling to avail himself or herself of the protection of that country, or to return there, for fear of persecution.

Outside of international law, and in the context of this hurricane, I think "refugee" makes sense because for many there is no place to which they can return; that suggests something more powerful than "evacuee."

posted by brainwidth 05 September | 21:19

Merriam-Webster says refugee is "one that flees; especially : a person who flees to a foreign country or power to escape danger or persecution." Note that it says especially but not exclusively. So I'm on the side of the loose-definition crowd. They're refugees.

posted by goatdog 05 September | 21:52

given the way they are being treated, they might as well be from another country.

posted by madamjujujive 05 September | 22:48

given the way they are being treated, they might as well be from another country.

That would explain why the President kept referring to it as "that part of the world".

posted by Armitage Shanks 06 September | 00:13

Probably not a coincidence - my favorite online dictionary has "Squalor" as the "Word of the Day" today:

Definition: (noun) A filthy and wretched condition or quality.
Synonyms: sordidness, squalidness
Usage: The squalor in which the refugees lived alarmed the aid workers, who knew they had to work quickly to improve these conditions.

Anyway, regarding "refugee", my personal parsing of the word is "one seeking safety/shelter as the result of a large scale event (war, religious/political pogrom, natural disaster)." You can find many instances of the phrase "famine refugees", for example. I won't use "disaster refugees" because for the purposes of this discussion, the numbers are artificially swelled by Katrina references. But I agree that it shouldn't be used lightly. I wouldn't really want to be hearing about "economic refugees" who are just moving to a different area because their local economy has taken a downturn. To me it indicates life threatening conditions that force a group of people to flee in order to survive.

In q.'s original definition, the term "as in", means "for example" and the "especially" indicates that these are not the only circumstances under which one might become a refugee, so I have to agree with its usage for Katrina victims.

posted by taz 06 September | 01:32

Firstly I don't see any malice in using the word refugee, so I don't see what the big deal is. Secondly I'd argue it's better than the alternatives.

Evacuate means to "move people away from possible danger" or "withdraw from a threatened area". Because of that I would say evacuee is far too tame a word to be applied in this instance.

Exile is a word more often applied to people who have been forced to leave a country for political reasons. For example, Karl Marx during his time in Britain is refered to as an exile. There's a long list of exiles on wikipedia.

posted by dodgygeezer 06 September | 03:47

They are refugees, in search of refuge from the dangers of their own government.

But seriously, they are really 'evacuees', since 'refugees' connotates a foreign national status that is generally not applicable to these folks.

Evacuees are being evacuated to safer residences inland, with the goal to allow them to move back to the New Orleans, Biloxi etc. after reconstruction. They would only be 'exiled' if we were not to rebuild. It's a bit early to make that kind of decision, no?

The media's rhetorical use of 'refugees' though is kind of interesting in that light. They might as well live in a different country under a different government, for all the help they've received so far from their native land.

posted by AlexReynolds 06 September | 05:08

"Evacuees" seems too short-term, and "refugees" possibly too politically charged... So I propose we call them "Evacugees", or "Revacuees", or maybe just "Fucked".

posted by taz 06 September | 05:44

I wonder if FEMA had a similar editorial discussion ... ahead of rescuing that is. That would explain a lot.

posted by peacay 06 September | 06:02

Even that discussion couldn't have taken them a full week. It must have been more like "How many FEMA employees does it take to screw in a lightbulb"?

(Answer: One to do the screwing, and about 2,600 to refuse all offers of assistance.)

posted by taz 06 September | 06:24

SANCTUARY! SANCTUARY!!!

posted by Hugh Janus 06 September | 08:51

But this is semantics.

ARGH.

se·man·tics ( P ) Pronunciation Key (s-mntks)
n. (used with a sing. or pl. verb)
Linguistics. The study or science of meaning in language.

I love it when people arguing over the meaning of a word say that something is "just" semantics.

I'd think that calling them "evacuees" is a bit insensitive given the lack of, say, an evacuation.

"Evacuees" seems too short-term, and "refugees" possibly too politically charged... So I propose we call them "Evacugees", or "Revacuees", or maybe just "Fucked".

Hilarious -- I'd love to see that headline.

posted by dreamsign 06 September | 11:49

Actually they are homeless. Though homelessness gives the negative look that these people have caused it themselves. Which is a bad situation to be in the USA.

posted by thomcatspike 06 September | 19:00

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