I still haven't read every post, but it was altogether just a really great thing that seemed to pull a painfully scattered, shattered membership together, and that is a blessing. We still have the bones of a great community site at MeFi, but some things have made really deep inroads of damage in the last year or so, and unfortunately, it has been a confluence of circumstances that just became too much for the site to bear up under:

* A highly charged US and world political atmosphere

+ Increased individual personal anger and frustration

+ An open membership that means often people are responding to members they don't recognize (in terms of history) so the always-dangerous "anonymous factor" has been ramped up

+ A lot of new members who just really want to get in on the whole famous MeFi snark thing, but don't really have much else to offer

+ Fewer and fewer "gee whiz" sorts of posts that can diffuse the anger and give users different points of reference with regard to each other.

Which all means that MeFi has been crumbling - not from the inside out, but from the outside in. The idea behind MeFi is still good; the structure is still valid, but the sheer weight of negativity that has been bearing down on the site has begun to splinter it so badly that it's been in real danger of collapsing entirely.

Here's why the sorts of posts as inspired by anastasiav can help to repair the damage:

* If the member you're arguing with in the ThisNewsAboutIraq thread is also the member who posted that amazing VeryCoolThingHere link that blew you away, your interaction with him or her will be influenced for the better. You may still disagree, but you're less likely to see that person in a completely one-dimensional way, and your approach will be different.

+ You're angry, I'm angry, we're all frustrated. If I go to the news sites, just about everything I see there will compound my anger and hopelessness. If I come to MeFi and see a selection of things that remind me of the creativity, diversity and imagination of mankind, and the wonders and mysteries of nature, &tc., I regain some of my optimism and my outlook goes from bleak to being tinged with color and hope, and my interactions on the site should reflect some of this.

+ If the new members who just wanted to get in on the snarkfest see that people posting quality OtherFilter links are being rewarded with attention and positive community support... they may possibly be inspired to expand their repertoire.

The dry/dark/sarcastic side of MeFi used to be one of it's charms, but it was only one aspect of the site, and it was tempered by variety. The member who zinged you in one thread would be very likely to praise you in another, and for the most part the zinging had real humor or creativity. That old charm has now diminished to the size of a pinprick (emphasis on "prick"). We have a raft of users who never understood the yin-yang of what made that work, who are just trudging around trying to [insert clever insult here]. Can they be schooled? I don't know, but I would love to see some different paradigms reassert themselves, on the off chance it's possible.

+ Finally, if this becomes the norm instead of the exception, more people who are interested in a more diverse universe of possible posts should be drawn in, and some older users may be drawn back. As it's been recently, MeFi has mostly presented as a political site, and the people who are inspired to join (since all the past lurkers have already entered) are those looking for a news/politics discussion site.
___________________________

If you agree with any of this, I say do whatever you can to try to extend the magic of 08/01.

I'm with you taz. (Even though my own recent behaviour hasn't been exemplary.
Been reading Shirky on The Group as its own enemy recently, and a lot of the behaviour we're seeing is put into context by this. Newsfilter posts especially are a huge problem for MetaFilter. Firstly, because there seems to be no good way to say "This newsfilter post is only OK, but because too many newsfilter posts hurt MetaFilter you're not now allowed to posta great newsfilter post." Secondly, because they foster division. I understand that certain viewpoints cannot and will not be tolerated by certain members yet ultimately, the group as a whole suffers.

I'll be posting more "metafilterish" stuff over the next week or so, and we'll see if it calms down the newsfilter people. I doubt it though. The Tragedy of the Commons dictates that the more we try and bend it to our requirements (by abusing screenspace), the more the newsfilter types will do the same.

Erudite and well thought out analysis taz.

umm...2 things jump up for me -

1. The contest proved to be a good focal point and yes it generated a mass of good fpps. In fact I'd like to freeze time for a day or 2 so I can get through JUST the ones that most insterest me. I think I probably fully read about 12 or so and smatterings of that amount again. So yeah, it was very successful and with a bit of luck it will have sparked some people into being more creative or observant about quality (whatever the hell that is).

2. As a devil's advocate idea, accepting that I've been actively engaged at MeFi really only this year, despite joining back in the day so my observations are tainted or influenced what have you by this fact; I think that it's possible you are focussing for the sake of this exegesis on the negative. And perhaps again, not being American is a factor, but I'm always well entertained at MeFi and as the saying goes, I skip what doesn't interest me and that will sometimes/often be political and (especially esoteric/parochial) newsfilter threads. So maybe I'm missing some of the unsavoury elements to which you allude - don't get me wrong, I know exactly what you mean - I just think one's attitude about what they want to get out of the place contributes a lot to the quality one walks away with.

But I think I agree that the left-right demarcation line is a major influence to the negative. I love some political stuff (and have in fact posted a couple myself but uneditorialized) especially where the issues are a bit more complex than running to one's usual side of the fence.

I hope contests aren't held regularly though or else people will horde and we may only get islands of goodness with dreck in between. Out of the blue (to coin a pun) with only a couple of days notice, if it's to happen again, is best methinx. The place still rocks for me. More good posts by all I say/hope.

Yes, taz, very well thought out. And despite being one of the new members I try and think about what it is I'm posting and commenting on in order to keep the level of discourse where I personally like to see it. Even then, when I get really wound up about a topic I find that I'm less likely to stay on an even keel.

In addition to the problem of new members and anonymous reactions to unknown people, I think that there is a bit of new members specifically going after each other. A kind of top of the new heap syndrome that goes on. I noticed it very much when orthogonality first started, several members clearly decided to take him on, and he decided to respond in kind. I remember one interaction between the two of us that I think I probably simply would not have engaged in (at that point) with someone with a lower user number. I think orthogonality calmed down a lot, and that went away more and more, but as you point out, memberships are still open and so the cycle continues. (I'm not, in any way, blaming orthogonality, just pointing out a pattern. I actually came to really like orthogonality and his departure has made me sad. I would have been shocked to think of saying that in the first couple of months I was aware of him.)

The other problem, of course, is simply that people like interaction, and political/news posts offer that interaction. Art posts, or games or cool websites in general are much less likely to generate discussion. Still, some people seem reluctant to even post in threads they find cool. I commented in Kim Chi's brick oven post that I would love to share my sourdough starter with anyone who emailed me, and although three people did, only one of them commmented in the thread itself. The thread only got 16 comments total, but I have to think that many more people than that clicked through and had some brief opinion.

Anyway, the contest was a great way to bring everyone up, and I thank anastasiav for the inspiration.

I feel sort of silly following up the essays above with a short four sentences, but I've got to hurry up and go sit in traffic. I read most of the 8/1 FPPs and thought there was some great stuff. Not only did people get into the spirit of posting some good stuff, but it also seemed to be a "news filter lite" day. Hopefully it rejuvenated the spirit of the fabled "old mefi" that so many MeFites long for.

memberships are still open and so the cycle continues

I've been of the opinion for some time now that Mathowie should close memberships again and let everything settle down a bit. I think doing this would make things easier for him and Jess as well (see: shouting). However, (and totally not being snarky here) I'm sure the money from new memberships is a hard thing to give up -- its different closing memberships when its not also a revenue stream.

Good thoughts, taz. I'm leaving tomorrow for vacation and won't be back until the 23rd or so. I'll be interested to see what I find when I get home.

the spirit of the fabled "old mefi" that so many MeFites long for.

which never at any specific time actually existed. but striving for it is a good thing.

anastsaiv, it looks like you (temporarily?) returned the balance to the force. Since the floodgates opened on 8/1, it has returned to a pre-Iraq war balance of best of the web with a few news/politics thrown in for good measure, the whole community owes you one.

Taz, to your argument I would like to say that I agree with you, and I want to add one thing to it:

Though there were a lot of people who were waiting to come in and get in on the snarkfest, we are also starting to see new members show up without prior knowledge of what Metafilter is, or without the added experience of being forced to lurk for months when the memberships were still open. For the most part, most of those people have had 7 or 8 months to get in and get adjusted. For the most part, I think this is a pretty good bunch of people who have seen Metafilter as more than what it has been lately - a little green footballs for the left with a few "oddities" thrown in for good measure.

Of course there are still great posts and posters posting (!), and of course there are still days that have come close to 8/1, but more and more it has become only a current events site. Which of course is why most of us are so upset about it.

New users are stumbling upon Metafilter as it is now, and only have that view of what it is - a current events site that focuses (for the most part) on an American Left point of view, which brings in more people who stumble onto it and want to preach to the choir (which happens to be less visible, but IMHO, just as destructive), but also people like shouting! from last week who stumbled onto the site and want to stir up those pesky lib'ruls (which happens to be more visible, but still destructive).

These users were not subject to the standard of finding the best of the web. Where the best of the web could be BUT IS NOT ALWAYS a link to a newspaper article or opinion column. These users have not been involved in the age old debate of "what makes a good post," mainly because I see a lot of older users giving up on Metafilter, or simply drifting away.

Perhaps part of this problem goes with the automated flagging system. Whereas we used to all go into the grey to discuss things like "single link to an op-ed? Not GOOD!", but now we are supposed to "flag it and move on." Which takes away the debate and, I would argue, has slowly eroded our self policing mantra. Why self police ourselves when #1 or #2 can take care of it for us? Yes debate in the grey is tedious. But it used to make us better.

I think 8/1 went a long way toward jogging peoples memories of what Metafilter could be. I know it did mine. I feel more reinvigorated, I remember why I used to love it so much. I remember why I started studying it two years ago, and why I would tell everyone I knew about this little corner of the web that was doing (or trying to do) it right.

quonsar is right in that it has never been perfect. But we used to care about trying to make it good.

Of course I just typed that and realized that it was Taz's final point (i.e. new users coming to a news discussion site and not Metafilter).

I was disappointed all morning by Three Blind Mice's post about American soldier deaths in Iraq because I felt like it was the return of precisely what anstasiav was lamenting. Now it's gone, and I can't help but wonder if the spirit of 8/1 helped to contribute to it's deletion (which I'm happy about).

I suspect that most new members lurk for months before signing up. I lurked for over nine months.

The FNG's are always noisy initially on any list or group. That's just how it goes. One solution might be to gate the open membership on and off based on quotas so that the system is able to assimilate the inevitable (and totally natural) noise accompanying entry. When I go into a new saloon, it is more or less de rigure to empty a six-shooter into the ceiling. Others may have a different way of getting acquainted.

For the last weeks, I've been involved in an investigation that requires a lot of field work and documentation. So I've been outside (you know, that big blue room with the great resolution) a lot. Coming back, 8/1 was a real treat, but I haven't had time to read much of it. On reflection, I spend much of my time on MeFi when I'm not feeling well and trying to rest. What seems very interesting then seems much less interesting when I actually have things to do and places to go in the World Wide World.

I continue to be fascinated by the unspoken thing that is "good."

When it's good, it's really good.

I'm ambivalent. I'm much more laissez faire when it comes to trying to "change" the blue and leave that up to Matt and, now, jessamyn. I trust them both. I can easily screen out NewsFilter (ie, I don't touch 'em usually, the recent post about meth being a pretty rare exception for me) and I am still finding a lot of 'best of the web' stuff with 8-1 being an exceptional day for that...in fact so exceptional that I spent most of that day (and night) on the web. However, I'm in a position where I can take that luxury if I want to, so that might contribute to my somewhat lessened concerns over the direction the site's taken, which lessens my interest in others stated concerns over the direction the site's taken in their estimation.

As to snarkiness--well, I've always had a smart mouth and a facility with the language, and I usually know how far I can take it or poke fun at people before their ire is invoked. I haven't ever extremely rarely get called out (son_of_minya, anyone?) on it and I get the overall impression that I'm well-liked over there. I trust other people to behave in the same fashion. I know that they don't, but I also don't feel it's my place to call others behaviors out unless they've gone wayyyyyyyyyy over the line, and to be honest, someone always beats me to the punch when it comes to that, and that's because usually it's in or due to a NewsFilter post (which I, again, tend to completely ignore).

I've been coming to MeFi daily for nearly 5 years now, which is extraordinary. Obviously I care about the site, otherwise I wouldn't be taking the time out of my day to say all of this. I'm comfortable with "website/community evolution" ideas. If the site ever takes a turn I don't like, I'll slowly drift away with no drama, but I really don't see that happening any time soon.

I'm much more comfortable with the idea of resurrecting MeFiDi. I contributed frequently to that site at one point, I know Jon himself did, and there was at least one other person who did (I suspect, but don't know for certain, that it was Migs). We all seemed to stop adding to that site sometime in 2004.

I'll send jonsullivan an e-mail and see what his thoughts are about bringing that back. It seems the best alternative for retaining the "spirit" of 8-1 resisting impulse to say NEVAR FORGET 8-1 and failing uttterly without invoking some of the concerns that people have raised here and in the gray.

It's a strange thing about mefi. I feel standards have dropped and made mefi less interesting. Simultaneously we have the constant presence of "the post police" who sarcastically ask "is this the best of the web?" or "this was posted four years ago" on every damn post.

As a consequence we have a site where there are double standards - often low quality news posts enjoy more attention than they deserve (shout to my bro' MC Amber G - I know all news posts aint be minging!) while at the same time anything that isn't news gets too much criticism.

I've never been a prolific poster on MeFi and it's unlikely I ever will be but I'll be sure to comment more often on posts I like. Hopefully this way we can support those who are doing the kind of stuff we want.

I thought it was cool. It was nice to see a bunch of good links next to each other. While I don't think this will really change Metafilter, I'd like to see an informal MeCha Posse Posting Binge every 1st Monday or 1st of the month or whatever. Which is not to say folks should not post to MetaFilter at other times too.

Perhaps the one thing I liked most was that I could post something and it did not feel lost amongst the other stuff, but rather it was supported by the high quality of the posts around it.

I remember one interaction between the two of us that I think I probably simply would not have engaged in (at that point) with someone with a lower user number.

Seriously? I simply cannot imagine verifying whether or not the person I want to snark at is a "legitimate target" or not - and that influences how I react to a member going off the deep end also more than whether they "posted that great thing last week" that I may or may not have caught (and certainly am not going to try to keep track of). What you are describing is certainly a community, but communities can also be popularity contests where words are sometimes less important than who says them. I got into a MeTa thread aways back over someone's nasty comment after the London bombings and my main question was: what was the purpose of this comment? Many seemed to want to say: "Oh, ___ is great; you just have to get used to him; I've learned to appreciate him", etc. But back to the specific question: are they saying that their knowledge of the poster shed new light on this comment and it really had some underlying value, or is this a Jeckyl and Hyde thing? It was the latter. Well, we all have bad days, but in this case, it wasn't the person having the comment having the bad day; he just went out of his way to rub it in.

The contest was good, at least as a reminder that there can be blue beneath the black and white. I haven't had the time to surf the way I used to and unearth those rare gems suitable for posting but that is now changing. A contest won't influence my timing, though.

The contest made me think a lot about best of the web and what it means to me. It's hard to pin down over and above the basics: good design & navigability & stuff like that - visual prettiness - but I finally decided that for me at least there are three broad categories: information, interaction (like the social button in the Sims ;-) ) and entertainment. For entertainment even a trainwreck can be great (In Kenya we have lions!) but the main reason I've been lurking at Mefi for, oh, about four or five years, finally joining with the November n00bs, is the information & interaction.

When I started lurking it was all about the links & I rarely even read the comments. Then last fall when I was all politically charged up and so shocked & disgusted by the election results Mefi was a real godsend - it was great to be around other people who felt like me but also weren't into the arcana of politics like Daily Kos. I don't have enough interest to sustain the purely & totally political & Mefi seems/seemed to strike the right balance. So I don't mind some newsfilter and I don't mind the LGF of the Left atmosphere - sometimes it's comforting.

All of which is a longwinded way of saying, I don't think Mefi is so bad - then or now. Yes, the contest brought a wealth of fabulous and interesting links that I'm loving like all of us (major kudos to LeeJay & rare books! also, wouldn't Necropolis Railway be a great band name?) but I think as a rule the balance of newsfilter/information/entertainment is, in fact, best of the web. And the interaction, even or especially the Flaming MeTa Crash N' Burns, is great too. There are a lot of smart & funny people there (and here) with & without snark. Every online community I've ever been a part of changes over time: people drift away, focus changes - it's okay. It's the life cycle. It's natural. I think Mefi is doing pretty damn well, all things considered.

Now if only the JRuns could be permanently exorcised . .

Solution: Join MoFi - but don't tell the idjuts about it.

isn't 8/1 the anniversary of the al login attacks on the mefi towers?

Don't forget the radical splinter group, the Demo Brigade.

Seriously? I simply cannot imagine verifying whether or not the person I want to snark at is a "legitimate target" or not

Yeah, it was less about popularity or legitimate targets than it was about feeling out the limits of the discourse. I'd been a lurker for about a year, but when I was able to join I found it was very different to be a member and actually have the responsibility that comes with commenting. In the exchange I'm talking about I remember thinking, "if I'm being an asshat, at least so it he, and he's got no more right than I do, nor any more idea if we're both going too far." It wasn't something I dwelt on.

Why does it take money and a contest for people to come out of the woodwork and post?

a reason, a why not, or a kick in the tushy
i think it made people refrain as much as post so it gave us some turn over

i have reached jruns upper post limit. if i post again, i fear the site will topple forever. but, it will topple in unicode displayed in live preview, so hey.

"Why does it take money and a contest for people to come out of the woodwork and post?"

Speaking only for myself, it wasn't for the money or the contest, but to support my friend anastasiav in a worthy endeavour.

Bloody hell, I get stuck with work for a few days and everything gets all good and shit. Maybe it is me that is dragging the standard down?

For what it is worth, I agree with taz that the community of MeFi is not what it once was (and that it never was what some people remember it to be). Closing memberships may bring back the atmosphere that seems to be what is missed by those of us who care about that stuff, but it is more likely that this is never going to happen.

I'd been a lurker for about a year, but when I was able to join I found it was very different to be a member and actually have the responsibility that comes with commenting.

The same was true of me. I wonder if it really was the lurking, though, that makes the difference. I'm sure we've seen kid-in-candy-store bad behaviour when the gates were opened before. Perhaps it's just the thought now that, if you get kicked, you can just get back in, no problem. Before, you held on to your personality (minus sock puppets, which I never understood), because if you acted badly enough, doesn't matter how lucky you were getting in, lightning wouldn't likely strike twice.

i think that's very true, dream