Because you're telling meat-eaters. Duh.

because eating meat is so primal and satisfying?

I don't know...all i ever say when people tell me they gave up meat is that they should start taking extra vitamins with iron, in case they don't get enough in their food. It's my automatic response.

Smokers actually have the same reaction to people who quite smoking. The polite reaction is, of course, "That's nice. I hope you are feeling well."

And then, to continure being polite, you respect everyone's choices. As a meat-eater, you always make sure to have lots of vegetarian options at a joint dinner and don't mix meat and vegetarian food, and as a vegetarian you say thank you, and don't tell other people why they should be vegetarians. It's like religion - if people want it, they know where to find it.

Well, if you are from beef country, as I am, failing to eat meat means you are taking money from the squinty-eyed upstanding ranchers and putting it in the pockets of the dirty commie organic people.

Of course, you could point out that more people grow soybeans out here than raise cattle, but then you'd be further compounding your sins by being a smartass. All commies are smartasses! It's in the Little Red Book somewhere.

Because people are rude. It is like WTF? Go to a social thing and you will hear:

"Yes we had a lovely weekend, we were at the beach"

"Really, where? Do you have a place there? You know we have a place, blah, blah, blah."

Or in your case:

"Cheeseburger?"

"No thank you,"

on and on, fuck it.

/rant

time for me to go to sleep.

When I told people I gave up smoking meat it was not received well.

Hi, Crushinator

I think it's because when you stop smoking, you're doing something that everyone knows is good for you in the long run...people that still smoke are usually envious, even if it's just deep down inside, and people that have either already quit or who've never smoked in the first place are happy to have you rejoin the fold. There is no doubt in anyone's mind that smoking is bad for your health.

But with giving up meat.... I think a lot of people are threatened on some level by someone who makes ANY kind of major change in the way that they eat, because it forces them to examine their own lifestyle and possibly unhealthy eating habits. Smoking isn't a necessity, but eating is, and not many people (jonmc excluded, of course) like to think that they eat crap, or that they could do better. So when you announce that you're giving up meat, or that you won't eat dairy anymore, or that sugar is at the root of all evil, people are going to get defensive, angry, concerned, etc. It just goes right to the heart of how they were raised, and how aware and enlightened they are about the things they put into their mouths. I'm not even talking specifically about meat eaters vs non-meat eaters, just talking about food choices in general.

For one thing, many people will immediately project any negative statement onto themselves. If you say you're doing it for the environment, they're going to take it as you saying that they don't care about the environment if they eat meat. You can't win. It's very frustrating and annoying, but it will pass, and if it doesn't, you'll just stop caring about it.

Believe me, I could write chapters on this. And I'm just generalizing, of course. Not every single person is going to react this way, but I know from experience that a pretty fair amount will.

So why do I get such mixed reactions when I tell people that I've stopped doing something that's bad for me and the environment?

Because it's not universally accepted that it is bad for you and for the environment, like smoking is. You may think or know it, and feel strongly about it, but others feel just as strongly that you're wrong.

On preview: Slack-a-gogo... ;) Hee.

I will predict that your reaction will certainly involve questions about what prompted this choice, and will likely involve at least one of the follow: skepticism, incomprehension, disappointment, hostility and/or ridicule.

Or indifference.

i think iconomy's right--there's implied and sometimes overt criticism if it's not phrased right. Saying "something that's bad for me and the environment" for instance, is critical of everyone who still eats meat.

And there's also the fact that they won't not kill those cows because you gave up meat. The rainforests are still going to be mowed down for McDonald's.

There's this anti-KFC campaign going on, but i don't know whether it's actually working--all KFCs always have to have visibly full trays of chicken under those lamps, whether people are buying them or not, i think.

There's this anti-KFC campaign going on

The one with Pamela Anderson? That's just the Network Battle of the Big Breasted Chicks, dude.

It's much bigger than just her--she's just the hook to get you straight boys interested

jonmc

Or indifference.

I never get that one. I don't like talking about being a vegetarian (don't want to be pushy, generally don't like the responses I get anyway) so if I'm talking about it, someone has asked me (except, of course, when I first told my parents years ago or when I have to mention it at a restaurant, etc.).

And there's also the fact that they won't not kill those cows because you gave up meat. The rainforests are still going to be mowed down for McDonald's.

My dad said something along those lines, amberglow, when I first announced my big vegetarian decision. It's the same logic as with voting, though, isn't it? One vote doesn't make a difference, but if no one voted where would we be? (My dad was a political science major, so he appreciated that.) The (remote) hope is that although the behavior of one person doesn't matter, if we all got together...

On preview: Pamela sucks.

Real str8 boys like me hate fake tits, dude. Gimme Audra Mitchell anyday of the week, bro.

*gnaws buffalo wing*

Or indifference.

I never get that one.

I used to bait my veggie freinds, because I'm a contrarian SOB. But people are gonna do what people are gonna do. I take it as a given that a certain percentage of people I meet are going to be vegetarian or vegan, and as long as they don't give me shit for my omnivorous ways, that's fine with me.

You're right, crush, but then that also implies you want people to act the way you are, which is also not objective, but proselytizing. (it's not wrong either)

I think when it comes to voting, your vote does matter more than a personal choice to eat or not eat something. Gigantic multinational corps are still going to do what they do.

I bait my friends that are vegetarian because it's bad for you or because killing animals is evil (I'm a vivisectionist for fuck's sake! I have to!) because those are debatable reasons. I can't debate my friends who are vegetarian because of environmental reasons, because I pretty much agree with them.

Slack-a-gogo, maybe the guy whose meat you used to smoke was feeling rejected.

for a living, gaspode?

*calls peta--code red! CODE RED!* ; >

I used to bait my veggie freinds

That's kinda what I'm talking about. Would you ever "bait" a recent non-smoker?

as long as they don't give me shit for my omnivorous ways, that's fine with me.

I never do this...unless first baited. :op

I think when it comes to voting, your vote does matter more than a personal choice to eat or not eat something. Gigantic multinational corps are still going to do what they do.

I think that changing your eating habits is as close as it gets to casting a "vote" for or against agribusiness. Recent writers on political economy like Thomas Friedman in his book The Lexus and the Olive Tree have argued that "voting" with your dollar is even more effective than casting a vote at the ballot box in a world increasingly dominated by multinational corporations.

That's kinda what I'm talking about. Would you ever "bait" a recent non-smoker?

When I was a smartass young punk, sure. I even lit up a smoke for a freind who was 6 months smoke free because she was caving. She's a born-again now.

But, I'm older and more mature now.

Thank you, amberglow, for rearranging my post with a "read more."

Voting with your dollar is effective but only insofar as you can convince many others to also do that. You can see that with McDonalds in Western Europe where sales are way down. That's a concerted coordinated effort tho, not one person. Convincing others and raising a stink about it is the only way that works, i think. Look at Microsoft--they backed down about the gayrights thing, and dumped Ralph Reed--that was a group effort, both inside and outside, tho.

oh...that wasn't me..i'm a lazy mod tonight--it's too hot.

Convincing others and raising a stink about it is the only way that works, i think.

In this case, I think that acting individually is more effective than trying to convince people (just think of the bad rep that PETA has). I've definitely seen veggie options increasing in the grocery store in my lifetime. And it looks like we're at 5% and gaining.

Um, I think that link may only apply to Ireland...? Last I heard 3-4% of Americans were vegetarians, but I can't (am to lazy to) find the stats right now.

Crushinator-
This is partly an expansion on iconomy's reply, but I think you're underestimating the extent to which people really really identify themselves in the way that they eat. It's true for many vegetarians, but also for many cultures and families. Many times when someone announces that they're becoming a vegetarian people close to them see them drifting away in more fundamental ways. I'm not saying this is always fair, but it happens a lot. Food traditions are some of our (humankinds) most ingrained; for many people assimilated into cultures different from the ones their family first came from, food traditions are the last traditions to change.

But I agree, meat eaters (of which I am now one) tend to react very poorly to non-meat eaters. When I was a vegetarian, even more when I was a vegan, just mentioning the fact was seen as a challenge by otherwise sane people. Wierd, but omnipresent.

Well, I think there's little doubt that meat production is much more environmentally taxing than is crop production. And as that argument goes, the case for reduced meat consumption is strong.

I can even let most vegetarians slide, but vegans? Buncha nutjobs. Doing without immunoglobulins and methionine does not make for a healthy person. I've never met a vegan whose ass I couldn't beat.

I've definitely figured out how to quit eating meat better than I've figured out how to quit smoking...

I once heard a comedian's schtick that went something like this...
I recently quit smoking pot...it was harder than quitting eating red meat...then again, folks don't usually stop by your house with a bag of meat saying "hey want to smoke some of this?"...

trharlan

Ooh (I may get pounded in another thread for saying this, but) I met a freaky/cool butch lesbian vegan when I worked at Earthfare who could probably beat your ass. All shapes and sizes...

Schyler523, you must not live among active hunters. One of the ways I can tell I'm growing older is that people I know are far more likely to offer me bags of meat, not grass.

(And tomato vines, and flower cuttings...that part's pretty keen.)

So why do I get such mixed reactions when I tell people that I've stopped doing something that's bad for me and the environment?

Because, as yhbc said, you're telling meat-eaters -- and they're afraid that you, in your vegetarianism, are judging them in their carnivorism.

[Haven't read through the thread yet, so apologies if my enthusiasm at posting a trenchant observation are redundant.]

...or "is redundant." Whatever you prefer.

What bugs me is that hardcore vegetarians seem to get such a stick up their ass when I tell them that, while I don't eat meat or fowl, I do eat seafood. And while generally I just say that, sometimes it's just easier to say "No thanks, I'm a vegetarian" or "I'm a pesce-vegetarian".

Clearly not in every case, but two things that are often to blame for this reaction are:

i) vague guilt at also eating meat and not examining the practice to come to a conclusion where you might actually have to do something about it, and
ii) anticipation that you are adopting a holier-than-thou attitude toward them since the change.

After ten and a half very unsuccessful months as a vegetarian (no meat, but I wasn't a good cook back then and lost far too much weight), I've come to the conclusion that, for me, it's better to simply cut down. I read "One Less Act of Violence" which was the turning point for me. Lifelong pacts are hard. But do I need to eat meat today? This meal? No. So I don't. But occasionally I do. A million people eating half as much meat has the same net effect as half a million eating no meat, and the latter is much more difficult to accomplish or sustain. I just don't get to be self-righteous about it. And others seem to not get so provoked if it gets mentioned, than when I was a "full-on" veggie.

Also, some people suck.

Also: congrats!

Mmm and I know plenty of people who are self-righteous about being a vegetarian and will throw a fit if you order meat in front of them in a restaurant. These people should be mocked.

amberglow: yeah for a living. I do basic biomed. research. You gotta kill the micies.

What bugs me is that hardcore vegetarians seem to get such a stick up their ass when I tell them that, while I don't eat meat or fowl, I do eat seafood. And while generally I just say that, sometimes it's just easier to say "No thanks, I'm a vegetarian" or "I'm a pesce-vegetarian".

Well, the thing is when people like you say you're a vegetarian, it gives inane people the idea that I, as a vegetarian, *do* eat seafood. That's why I get a stick up my ass about it, because it makes my life harder. But pesce-veg or just what you don't eat, whatever.

Also, it seems kinda half-assed. But I wouldn't give you shit for that unless you were my friend.

I'm kind of surprised that people get that much static about it... I figured most restaurants would be sure to have options for everyone, and that even most people giving dinner parties would consider that some of the invitees might be vegan/vegetarian or just non-meat-eaters. (Of course that last assumption may be entirely wrong, depending on where you are.)

In other words... Why would it come up much at all? If it happens to be brought up in discussion, I agree that people may react badly because they are defensive, but if you don't direct attention to it, or bring it up too often, or talk about it in overly politicized terms when it is discussed outside your circle of close friends and family, it seems as though you shouldn't get a lot of unwelcome comments. I mean who is going to get upset because you want to order the pasta primavera instead of the sirloin?

You just try to be cool and natural with it, and the majority of people will probably follow suite. And if you just don't feel like dealing with the issue at any given time when it comes up with casual acquaintances, don't say "I'm a vegetarian", say "I'm not eating meat right now". Why? You're trying to get healthier, lose weight, cut down on cholesterol, get more natural vitamins in your diet... blah, blah.

I don't know if my situation helps or not,but let's see. I've been vegetarian all my life, ie no conversion. This was mostly becasue of my upbringing and in orthodox hindyuism it's kinda forbidde. But my family was pretty liberal and soon i was faced with a decision to either eat non-vegetarian food as well or keep being vegetarian. in a country like India it's easy to be vegetarian, because there are tons of choices and varieties of vegetarian food. I stuck to being vegetarian, mainly because I KNEW that I didnt need meat in any way. And basically because vegeterianism involves less killing. But when i'm asked about this, I invariably get into an argument about which is better etc etc ad nauseum. So i usually tell people I'm vegetarian on religious grounds (not really true-but hey)and the conversation usually switches to something else. I guess the religious angle won't work for everybody, but you have to develop some quick non-combative answer to why your vegetarian.

Giving up meat is a difficult life choice on par with giving up smoking.
ha, ha, ha, ha. As someone who at one point in his life has given up meat and given up smoking, I'd like to say the two aren't even comparable.

However, I know a lot of vegatarians, so the choice of giving up meat would be a simple one for me.

I've been trying to eat less meat, and when I tell people that I'm trying to go vegetarian, a lot of them definitely ask a lot of questions. I do get a feeling that they think it's very bizarre and countercultural, but first these are always strangers and acquaintances, so maybe they're intolerant across the board, and second I don't have solid evidence yet that I've read them correctly... it's just a feeling. But it is almost a religious vibe, as if you'd challenged their religion by talking about vegetarianism.

But if you mention vegetarianism to Asians or people familiar with Asian culture, they probably won't even blink. I'm Asian and my mom, who generally hates all of my life decisions, is okay with it. We didn't even have a discussion about it.

Crushinator, doesn't help any at all but I got similar reactions when I gave up drinking. No congrats or anything, all probing near accusing questions as to why, and nobody would accept the real answer - because it's healthy - as the real one either. Sick of having to explain that I wasn't a recovering alcoholic, I used Dhruva's religious grounds reason within a week.

jonmc - if there was ever an argument for vegetarianism, it would be audra mitchell. buffalo wings indeed.

and all you meatophobes - much as i love veg/fruit/tofu/etc. and respect your decision, based on whatever grounds it may have been made - don't you crave a bloody fillet steak once in a while?

just asking.

yeah, it all depends on who you're telling and what their attitude is. Smoking is kinda hardly cool anywhere anymore, but if you told a bunch of youngish smokers 10 years ago that you were quitting, I don't think you'd have gotten many congrats. Nowadays you can't even smoke in bars in NYC, something I never would have believed when I was in college. Everyone who smokes now has at least thought about quitting. It's just "what to do." I used to know people who joked about how people who quit smoking were just quitters, not committed enough to the cancer sticks, etc. Now I just know people who talk about how they'll quit next month for sure.

Anyway, with not eating meat, you have a much smaller pool of people who are gonna be fully supportive of your choice. If you tell a bunch of vegetarians, you'll get a lot of support. If you tell meat eaters who really want to stop eating meat, you'll probably get some support. If you tell a bunch of people who really identify with their meat eating, who would never consider ditching it, then you're not gonna get a lot of support. The same would be true with any habit.

I've been veggie for 10 years or so, and rarely have issues about it - it doesn't come up unless we're eating, and friends and family all know already. Living in NYC & being Gen X, it's pretty normal anyway. I admit to having gotten kind of annoyed with my mother calling herself vegetarian when she ate fish and sometimes chicken. But this was partly because she would never qualify her statement and would act like I was silly not to eat fish or sometimes chicken. And it was partly because she's my mom and we have that kind of mother-daughter bickerfest relationship.

...don't you crave a bloody fillet steak once in a while?

and all you cannibalophobes, don't you crave some tasty roast baby every now & then? :)

don't you crave a bloody fillet steak once in a while?

My gut reaction: No. Absolutely not. Disgusting. I may be able to draw another vegetarian-nonsmoker analogy here. When I was smoking, I didn't mind cigarette smoke at all (duh) but since I stopped it bothers me a lot to be around people who are smoking. Likewise, since I stopped eating meat I find the thought of chewing a big chunk of flesh disgusting. I do want certain *flavors* sometimes, (not steak, I've never cared for it) but, honestly, when I crave the bacon now I reach for the Morning Star Farms box without a thought. That IS bacon to me, better than bacon because it's bacon minus the knowledge that I'm eating piggy fat. Plus, I'm not preggers, I don't get hardcore *cravings* for any type of food, including meat.

(Incidentally, I didn't feel this way when I first stopped eating meat and my reasons for going veggie had nothing to do with being repulsed by meat. The feeling just developed over time.)

jonmc - if there was ever an argument for vegetarianism, it would be audra mitchell. buffalo wings indeed.

don't be a playa hata, man. Audra's a hottie. Were I not happily coupled, I would start nibbling at her toenails and not stop until I got to her hairpins.

if there was ever an argument for vegetarianism, it would be audra mitchell. buffalo wings indeed.

Mrs. Roper from Three's Company???

Yeah, I can see your point.