sio42, sometimes emotional maturity means letting go of a relationship that doesn't meet your needs. (When all involved therapists say that's what's happening, I'd tend to accept their judgment, rather than your partner's.)

In terms of myself and how I approach my relationships, I think we all get more mature when we seek relationships with people who are reliable and loving (versus "exciting" and withholding), and yet also realize that we are ultimately responsible for caring for ourselves.

i guess i just feel like i'm giving up on him, that he'll change eventually because he's trying so hard right now.

but it's like a game that keeps happening and we've been here before and once i'm back "in" he'll withdraw. i don't know if i have the fortitude to let myself be hurt like that again.

i think that a larger part of this is how well i know myself and what i want and can handle, hence my part about knowing if i'm giving myself a line or not.

i guess these things are always hard. i'd be leaving an entire life and he'd be really really hurt. and i would be sad too, for the friendship we have and for the romance that never was.

I think it means just acting like an adult. What do toddlers do emotionally when everything doesn't go their way? They scream, cry, beg, whine, say things they don't mean just to be hurtful ("I hate you!"), and, if this behavior isn't unlearned, move on to other things like being passive aggressive. Being emotionally mature means dealing with the hard things of life, recognizing that everything in life is give and take, sometimes smiling when you don't feel like it.

how do i know if i'm being passive aggressive? i often feel that the therapists don't know EVERYTHING and that they are missing something important. but i'm starting to feel that a little bit less after several sessions of couples therapy.

i'm often worried that i'm being passive aggressive b/c i grew up in that kind of family and i'm trying really hard to not be.

sorry if this is all elementary, i'm just trying to make sure i've got my head on straight in the midst of a lot of emotional confusion.

Passive aggressiveness is not expressing what you really want, but making an end run around that expression, because you're afraid of confrontation/rejection/etc. It's manipulative and most people can sense when it's being used on them.

Example: You want bf to take out the garbage. Days pass and he still hasn't done it.
Direct: Hey, the garbage is really stinky, can you take it out now?
Aggressive: I told you to take out the garbage 3 days ago! What's wrong with you?
Passive aggressive: Jeez, it stinks. I guess I have to do everything around here. *mumbles*

Actually I'd rephrase the direct approach to be "I'd like you to take the garbage out now because the smell is bothering me." My initial approach could be said in a snarky tone.

i have to laugh at myself a little because i think i'm confusing asking for what i need in a relationship with being passive-aggressive.

i try to do the "i feel ___ when you ___, i'd like it if _____" phrasing. i guess we're all passive aggressive sometimes.

the problem is that i end up not asking for what i need because if do the above, he tells me either a) that's now how he operates, b) he DOES do the thing, or c) that's not something i should need.

which all makes me doubt myself. i can't quite figure out if i have a strong sense of self which i have been allowing to be disintegrated over the years or if i just have no idea what the hell i want.

I do the passive-aggressive thing and my therapist says I shouldn't attribute a negative to that emotion, but I do.

Example: Boyfriend knows that I don't like it when he leaves flammable things on my gas burners. He leaves a pot holder on my gas burner while he's finishing up preparing a reheated plate for me after I've had a very long day at work and he made a special trip to come spend time with me. I, being in a bad mood already, zoom straight from zero to BITCH and after briefly thanking him for preparing a meal, start off by saying, "Remember what I've said about leaving flammable things on my stove?"

Yeah.

I tried to defuse it with humor, but I don't know how well it went over.

My therapist and I are working on this emotional maturity thing, too, and considering that I've been working on it for about three years now, it's something that's hard to correct. So don't feel bad if you don't think you're not quite there yet.

One thing I keep in mind is the fact that you're even trying to change is a good start to being able to make lasting change.

On preview: he tells me either a) that's now how he operates...

Then you and he need to compromise. Or he needs to unbend a fucking little.

Seriously, if you ask him to take out the trash and his response is "That's not how I operate" then WTH is wrong with him???

no it's more like "i feel like you're not committed when i find out that people you've known for years don't know you've had a girlfriend for the past 3 years. i'd like it if you would refer to me as your girlfriend sometimes. that would make me feel like a partner in this relationship."

and he says "i like to keep my private life private. that's how i operate."

so AFTER i catch him making plans to cheat, he introduced me once or twice as his girlfriend. this was two years ago.

So I wrote a wall of text, and I see on preview that the conversation has moved on while I was composing. Apologies for that, and the fact that lunch hour is over and I'm out of time to attempt much more than quick editing.

Whatever steps I've made in terms of emotional maturity have been built on feeling that my emotions are worthwhile, and therefore should be addressed. That took awhile to get to.

Recognizing my own emotional responsibilities to myself has led to trying to disengage from the idea that I'm responsible for other people's emotions. sio, where you say "he'd be really really hurt" - just make sure that you're only acknowledging that and how it makes you feel, not taking responsibility for your boyfriend's emotional well-being on your own shoulders. That's his responsibility, not yours.

I unfortunately can't remember the titles of any of the books I borrowed from my mom the last time I was in a sticky place emotionally, but I do remember that sometimes it was really helpful just to write down the emotion that was predominating at the time, sort of free associate around why I was feeling that way, and then take one of the factors and feeding into the emotion and go into why it was a factor in more detail. So the exercise would look something like: "What am I feeling?" X. "Why do I feel this way?" Y, G, Q, 5, B, J, 7. "Why did Q come up?" Lorem ipsum dolor ...

Doing all that sometimes clarified to me what the relative importance of a particular factor was. And if it was important, then I tried to do some writing around things I could do to see whatever change needed to happen around that factor.

I like to sum up emotional maturity as: You take responsibility for your own shit, and you let other people take responsibility for their own shit.

So:

If you're having a bad day, you don't dump all that shit onto your partner when he does something not all that bad; it's your shit that's bothering you, not his shit. (You then take actions to deal with the shit that's actually bothering you, whether that's addressing it directly or just finding healthy ways to de-stress.)

If you've got a handle on what's really bothering you, and what's really bothering you is something your partner has done, you let them know in a direct, non-aggressive way (like desjardins outlines above).

If you've told your partner that what they're doing is bothering you in a direct, non-aggressive way, and they flip out or otherwise dump their shit on you, you recognize that that's their shit and not your shit and you (a) hold on to your honest feelings about the original behavior while (b) not getting caught up in their shit or letting them talk you out of your feelings while, possibly, (c) being willing to compromise on their behaviors. (For example, "I understand that you keep your private life separate, but it makes me uncomfortable; telling me I shouldn't be uncomfortable does not ease my discomfort. What are you willing to do to make me more comfortable? Some ideas that I see are X, Y, and Z; would any of those work for you?")

If your partner does dump their shit on you (as we all do occasionally), then I like what one psychologist called "enclosing yourself in a permeable bubble" -- you let the not-my-shit-storm bounce off the bubble, but you do let through the bits that are valid, and you take action on them. (His example was, you come home after a long day at work, and your partner immediately lays into you with "Why the hell haven't you taken out the garbage!!!! You never do anything around here!" Not the nicest way to approach someone walking in the door, but on the other hand, you probably should have taken out the garbage. So you honor the valid request and take out the trash, while at the same time filtering out the shit that's not valid -- both internally (not taking it on as part of your self-view) and externally (not getting hooked into an argument).)

On a more individual note, if you find yourself constantly questioning whether you are allowed to have needs and desires and preferences, you probably need to work a bit both on figuring out what your needs, desires, and preferences are as well as learning how to express them, and not putting up with people who constantly try to talk you out of them. Journaling can sometimes help with that, or even making a big list labeled "I LIKE..." and then just listing everything, big or small, that you like. Or I read of one person who plays a game with herself called "What do I want right now?", where she just tries to tune into herself and answer that question, whether the answer is "A big chocolate sundae" or "To be held by my partner while I cry."

I think it's helpful just to get in the habit of recognizing and acknowledging our needs and desires as a way of affirming that we're not only allowed to have them, but *supposed* to have them, otherwise we're really no better than a doormat.

occhiblu - thank you - that is all very helpful. i think i'll have to read it a few more times. i think i may take that into my next indiv therapy session.

i think i'm still in the process of what you're describing towards the end, figuring myself out and not letting someone talk me out of how i feel. i just don't want to talk my own self out of my feelings either.

thanks a bunch for everyone and the food for thought. it helps so much.

Here's how I operate: my feelings are always valid, but my actions and behaviors sometimes aren't. An extreme example: I'm so angry I want to throw something. It's OK to be angry. It's not OK to actually throw something.

Another example:
You: I feel angry when you do x because of y. Next time I would prefer you do abc instead.
Him: You shouldn't be angry because blah blah blah.
You: Well, that's how I feel, and I'm going to take a walk until I calm down.

Personally, I won't bend myself into pretzels trying to figure out if I should be with or stay with a person. All relationships involve work and compromise, but ultimately I want to feel comfortable and respected. If I don't, on a continuous and consistent basis (everyone has their shitty days), then there's no reason for me to stay.

As far as talking yourself out of your own feelings, it's been really helpful for me to recognize the physical reactions that go with my feelings. My heart pounds when I'm angry. My palms sweat when I'm scared. I can't just pretend these things don't exist, and my sweat glands don't listen when I think "I shouldn't feel this way." It's useful for me to think of feelings like a storm; you can't stop the rain, you can only wait until it passes, but you CAN take appropriate action (e.g. shelter).

I'm not really fit to give relationship advice, but I'll tell you what I've learned over the years.

I think one aspect of emotional maturity is accepting people for who they are. If you are always thinking about how your partner lets you down, instead of the good things he does, you're setting yourself up for a lot of misery.

One of the things I've learned to do (and I'm much happier for it) is to stop thinking so much. Stop inventing ways to be unhappy. There's a decent book that's called, How to Improve Your Relationship Without Talking About It. Of course I believe that communication is essential, but too much talking, and thinking, is draining. Often one partner is going along their merry way, believing everything is hunky dory until the other partner hits him with a list of complaints. A person can be chronically dissatisfied despite a giving and decent partner. I've learned that there are nicer and easier ways to get the things you need and want. The intimacy and sheer fun of having a close relationship is just about the best thing a human can experience, in my opinion. A lot of people don't experience this because they repeatedly do things to prevent intimacy. Some books you might find helpful that I have learned from: Passionate Marriage and John Gottman's books. Don't get me wrong, I don't want to paint a picture like I am the most secure and living in relationship bliss (I'm not) but I have learned what it takes to have a healthy relationship and have stopped doing a lot of things that were counterproductive. For the most part, most of it is healthy most of the time.

Being in a relationship is just about the best way to grow up in my opinion. We're all growing up and learning to behave like adults. Intimate relationships help us do that better than anything else.

Other aspects of emotional maturity that come to mind:
-being able to self-comfort instead of relying on others to soothe your every worry and fear. Also it is not necessary to vocalize every neurotic thought.
-being responsible for your own happiness
-Sometimes I used to throw a pity-party for myself when I had to visit the in-laws yet again, or do something I didn't want to do. (Nothing harmful, illegal, or distasteful of course.) Part of being a grown-up is recognizing that you will have to go (cheerfully and without complaint! ;-)) because you know it's important to your partner, instead of vocalizing your unhappiness.
-actually, pouting is pretty much forbidden :-)
-learn to let the little things go
-don't keep score


On preview, others have said it better but that's my bit.

stop thinking so much - Dwelling overlong on a situation is a sure road to false assumptions. You will never have all the facts, and what is true for your reality will always be distorted in that of others.

And I still throw pity parties and can be very moody, and sometimes I can be downright disdainful. So again, I'm not qualified by necessarily walking the walk 100 percent of the time. These are some of the things I have found useful.

"That's not how I operate" is only valid when said by a machine. A human could change how they operate. He made plans to cheat? Is that how he operates? Is he in couples therapy because he wants to be there, or because you made him go? "He has agreed to get his own therapy." Is it really his own if it's part of an agreement? He seems reluctant to be in this relationship. disclaimer: IANYT.

i like the idea of lists to help me figure things out. What are some lists you all would recommend?

I didn't mean to derail onto my bf. Sigh. I feel like sometimes it's just me being weird and that's why I want to figure out more about me so I can either accept him or let him go.

also, if we break up and he is really hurt isn't that my fault in a way, because he's only hurt due to us breaking up? He's in therapy cause he wants this to work, he says. I'm on my phone so can't type more.

I was just thinking that instead of keeping a "To Do" list, I should keep instead a "Got Done" journal.

Actually, I'd recommend a list of his responses to your requests. Look at it hard once done and ask yourself how you would have responded if he had made the same request in the same way.

And -- it is normal to have needs. It is very odd, and not normally something to try to accept, to decline to respond to their articulation except by saying no.

Lastly, if you break up with him, his hurt feelings are his concern, not yours. Re being in therapy, he needs to respond to what the therapists are saying, or your decision to pull the plug will truly be his doing.

Good luck with this. I think you are trying to take responsibility for things that aren't your doing. I also think that you are entitled to a relationship with someone who cares enough about you to want to meet your reasonable needs.

i guess i just feel like i'm giving up on him, that he'll change eventually because he's trying so hard right now.
He won't change - he's trying to change his behaviour to make you happy, but people don't really change anything other than their outward behaviour. In the end, what's inside will come out and, if it ain't right, it ain't right.

First of all, it's OK to be weird. However you are, whatever you feel, whatever you need, is okay. Really.

And while the relationship's end may be the cause of his hurt, that doesn't mean it didn't need to happen. There's no way to go through life and successfully avoid suffering, or completely avoid causing suffering. Parents create "suffering" all the time by telling kids they can't stay up too late. Doctors cause pain when they set broken bones. Life is full of shitty things that nevertheless need to happen.

Part of emotional maturity is giving up the need to protect everyone around you from the consequences of their own actions.