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02 April 2008

Countermanding the teaching of hate? Ethical question about interfering with parenting.[More:]A relative has two children, aged four and two. She has made her feelings about homosexuality well known, and plans on teaching her kids that homosexuality is badwrongevilimmoral. I love my relative and her kids but I'd be sad to have hatred taught to another generation. Is it more ethical to allow a parent to teach their kids whatever they like no matter what, or to take the kid aside and tell him being gay is OK but don't tell Mommy?
Well, interfering too strongly is a sure way to get yourself shut out entirely. I'd stick to repeating "Not everyone believes that" whenever she says something disparaging. It registers your disapproval without being too confrontational. If they bring up the subject as they get older, you can make your views more clearly known.
posted by jrossi4r 02 April | 10:23
If it's a concentrated plot and the kids are so young that "don't tell Mommy" is part of the equation, than no, you shouldn't do it. Be a person in their life they can come to with questions about anything, and maybe someday they will. Or maybe not, nobody likes a pushy relative (says someone who knows).
posted by ThePinkSuperhero 02 April | 10:25
Four and two is too young to soak up much about sexuality, methinks. The four year old is probably only just beginning to get a handle on how is babby formed, anyway, and moving on from that to general sex takes a while. I'd wait and worry about this when they're older.
posted by mygothlaundry 02 April | 10:36
Yeah, never ever ever ask kids to keep secrets of any kind. That is a pretty unhealthy thing to set up. Not only will it teach them that secrecy with adults is okay, but it could really stress them out to feel like a pawn in what is really a contention between two adults. To whom should they be loyal? Why do you need to be secret about your beliefs? Why are you suggesting they not trust/disclose a conversation to mom? Icky stuff.

I like jrossi4r's suggestion. You aren't required to tolerate bigotry or even appear to tolerate it, so you can simply state your own opinion and live accordingly. If nothing else, the children will become aware that their are differing points of view on the issue.

They will make their own path. You be you and speak up when you need to - let them be them and figure things out by working, as we all do, to reconcile the various points of view they will encounter in life.
posted by Miko 02 April | 10:37
That's not hate, but intolerance. Mislabelling should also not be condoned.
posted by Ardiril 02 April | 12:14
At least in my experience, being an example is a far better way of showing kids the difference between right and wrong than any words you can use. For example: The schools I went to from elementary through high school all taught that drinking and smoking were eeevul. My parents never said anything on the topic to me, but they occasionally partook of an alcoholic beverage, and some of the other missionaries they worked with were unabashed smokers. I never saw anything bad coming from the drinking of wine or the smoking of cigarettes, and I concluded long before I graduated that the schools' ideas were full of shit.

Try to acquaint these kids with homosexuals as they actually exist in the real world, not the bogiemen homophobes conjur. Seeing that gays and lesbians are in almost all aspects the same as they are will probably go further to dispel any parental misinformation than anything you can say.
posted by deadcowdan 02 April | 13:18
I agree with everything everyone said above, with one minor quibble:

Four and two is too young to soak up much about sexuality, methinks.

Too young to learn anything about sexuality, yes, but not too young to learn about who's good and who's bad. I think back to the number of kids I knew in second grade who used the N-word. They learned that from their parents, probably well before second grade. Four years old is not too young to learn about 'fags.' About gay sex, yes, but not about fags.

Sorry, mgl! I know what you meant, and I still love you.

Anyhow, I say go for this:

Be a person in their life they can come to with questions about anything, and maybe someday they will.

And this:

You aren't required to tolerate bigotry or even appear to tolerate it, so you can simply state your own opinion and live accordingly. If nothing else, the children will become aware that their are differing points of view on the issue.

Oh, and also pray that one of them turns out to be gay.
posted by mudpuppie 02 April | 13:56
Oh mudpuppie, I posed that hypothetical to my relative (that one of them turns out to be gay) and she matter-of-factly insisted she would have to disown them "for making that choice." Nothing I could say could convince her of the lack of choice in these matters.
posted by waraw 02 April | 14:01
And thanks everyone. Keeping my mouth shut is probably the best course of action.
posted by waraw 02 April | 14:02
At least in my experience, being an example is a far better way of showing kids the difference between right and wrong than any words you can use.

Yes. Beyond being the "cool uncle" (or whatever you are) who has friends of all types, sizes, and sexualities, and who doesn't tolerate hateful speech in his presence, there's not much you can do.
posted by muddgirl 02 April | 14:09
Oh mudpuppie, I posed that hypothetical to my relative (that one of them turns out to be gay) and she matter-of-factly insisted she would have to disown them "for making that choice."

Well, that's very sad, but not very surprising. But, they're four and two, and they're not really who they are yet.

My dad was pretty firmly in the anti-gay camp until they found out that I was gay. When we had the whole conversation (during which they asked me if I was gay), my dad's first response was "I haven't cried since I was 9 years old, but I've cried every night for the past two weeks about this." It fucking broke my heart.

But he came around.

I think all that talk about disowning your kids is just that -- big talk. Usually. Of course it happens. But that's just a shock to me. I think most parents become okay with it, in their own unique way, at least to the extent that they don't permanently cut off contact with their kids. And if they do take that route, they've obviously got the wrong priorities.

But again, she's got lots of time. She might notice that her 6-year-old likes dolls, and that her 12-year-old only hangs out with girls, and that her 16-year-old likes to paint his nails, etc. And thus it can be a gradual process of acceptance (even if grudging).

Hang in there. Be a good uncle-figure. Be there for the kids if their mom turns out to be a real ass.
posted by mudpuppie 02 April | 14:12
...and then there's stuff like this.
posted by mudpuppie 02 April | 14:21
I would say you are absolutely obgligated to provide a counterbalance against any kind of hate and intolerance. Even beyond the fact that I feel we as humans are obgligated to speak out against injustice and prejudice whenever we encounter it, you need to think about those kids futures.

I mean, people who grew up fifty years ago were in a time when casual racism was accepted in many areas. But their children, who were raised with that mindset and are now adults themselves? They have to somehow find a way to change a lifetime of conditioning or be unable to function in a world that has become intolerant of the beliefs they were raised to hold.

These kids will have to live their lives with gay teachers, coworkers, bosses, etc. How many times will they be disciplined at work, or simply lose a job, because of the hate they learned at home? Mom might think it's well and good to call someone names, but I know at 99% of american workplaces that'll get you thrown out on your ass. And I would hope the last 1% will catch up by the time they're old enough to be in the workforce.
posted by kellydamnit 02 April | 14:57
I like jrossi4r's approach. Nothing fussy or stressed, but whenever a toad comes out of her mouth, respond with a calm, pleasant "Not everyone agrees with that."
posted by tangerine 02 April | 16:21
Yeah, I wouldn't just back off and say nothing, but I also wouldn't pull the kids aside and tell them their mother's totally wrong and don't tell her I said so, either. I think there's definitely a middle ground, depending on your relationship with the kids.
posted by occhiblu 02 April | 16:28
Well, let me amend that just a tad: it's intolerance and most probably ignorance.
posted by Ardiril 02 April | 17:04
I just heard from Jrossi4r and || Hi everybody!

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