Just a few thoughts and maybe by a stretch, a little advice, we'll see!

It is almost like Negative Affect Override ( NAO). Sometimes for whatever reasons it has happened, no matter what another person does, your "override" is tipped against. You will always suspect the worst case scenario.

In relationship counselling NAO is used to explain why things that once you were given a pass on, seem to suddenly cause huge problems in a relationship. So a tipping point is reached (the NAO), after which everything the other person does is almost by default understood or interpreted negatively.

(The opposite is also true in the early phases of a relationship we have a PAO, positive affect override, so the silly things just get an "aw Sweet!" reaction)
It sounds to me like the damage of that formative relationship causes you to engage the NAO more often than average, which makes you susceptible to thinking people must be taking advantage.


I'm someone like you who will go the extra mile to make people happy, it is NOT a chore, I actually get a buzz from doing these things. However, having recently been in receipt of this NAO attitude over a period of about 6 months, from a very close friend, it actually made me feel physically ill. I had to cut this friend out of my life completely, which is the very first time I have ever done this. Everything I did, no matter the evidence, was interpreted in a hostile fashion.
On the other hand, I have another friend of 30 plus years who is one of THE most negative individuals I know, but she's like that about life death and the Universe, it has never impacted on our core friendship.

So my 2 cents worth, and that really is all it's worth, is that you have formed a very toxic core belief about people in general from this formative experience. It would be really useful to tease out (a la CBT), the rational basis for the belief that you are being taken advantage of, as, over time, it could make you a very bitter person.

I'm very glad that I've found CBT, and especially the book to which I keep referring, which connects CBT to the concepts of mindfulness. I am finding them really helpful and, in fact, I think some of the growth is helping me uncover some of these gems that I didn't think existed. Think I'll do some reading specifically about the whole NOA/POA that you desribe!

I used to go much more out of my way to do those sorts of little things, too; I have an insanely good ear, and memory, for those little tossed-off comments (like, "Oh, Reese's Pieces are my favorite candy!") and I used to take a lot of pleasure in surprising people by remembering that sort of stuff.

Then, I think, two things kind of happened. One, I started to get annoyed that other people didn't remember my shit and that remembering all this shit was kind of turning into a job. It was a job that only I had hired myself for, but it was just starting to feel like this tangle of obligations that was turning me into a paranoid crazy person, because it had evolved from "Oh, I happen to be nearby someplace where I can pick up something for so and so" to "I have to arrange my day/week/life so that I can pick up that thing for so and so [who never requested that thing and probably wouldn't care if I didn't pick it up] and I will be a bad person if I don't rearrange my life that way, even if it's totally inconvenient."

I only really recognized this, though, when I once presented a mental To Do list that I had going to my therapist. She, in nicer words, told me that most people just do NOT think of other people's needs on that constant and concrete and incapacitating a level, and that doing so was not really "nice" as much as it was "crazymaking." It was a good reality check. (Realizing that my father does the same thing to an extent that frustrates the hell out of me also helped me realize the downsides of this "niceness" -- always putting other people's needs first can end up distancing you from other people, because it puts you in a position of power over them.)

Two, due to various life circumstances, I suddenly had way less free time, way more stress, and much less patience for various things that hadn't been a big deal in the past.

So I basically decided to stop doing things that made me resentful. When I notice myself starting to stress out about some task, whether it's one that another person has asked me to do or one that I've assigned myself, I ask myself, "Am I going to end up resenting the other person [or being pissed off at myself] if I do this as it's been requested?" If the answer is "Yes," then I usually try to either change the request or just skip it, whatever's more appropriate.

Which sometimes puts me into "bitchy" territory, given how women are just kind of assumed to be self-sacrificing *and* given the way I used to act, which means it sometimes creates a fair amount of self-doubt. But I figure it's better to be honest and occasionally put people out than to be overly accommodating but constantly stewing.

Or, as a professor keeps telling us, "Saying yes when you mean no is the recipe for resentment" AND "Saying yes when you mean no is your own responsibility, not the asker's."

So I guess, really, I've kind of come to a place where I just feel like indulging other people on a constant basis is not something I can do right now. It wasn't wrong to do it before, and it may be a behavior that I start up again (in a more limited, sane way!) when I can do it without resentment, but I'm just not mentally/emotionally at that place right now, so it's ok (and in fact good) not to do it.

n relationship counselling NAO is used to explain why things that once you were given a pass on, seem to suddenly cause huge problems in a relationship. So a tipping point is reached (the NAO), after which everything the other person does is almost by default understood or interpreted negatively.

This is really interesting and perfectly explains a situation I have. I must read more of this.

For me, also (because that last comment just wasn't long enough!), part of this is related to my need to be the "savior" or "rescuer." Only I am attentive enough to know what kind of candy to buy! Only I am thoughtful enough to get her an appointment at the best skincare place! Only I can remember everything that everyone has ever said, and parse it in order to divine their true thoughts, feelings, and desires! Only I am smart enough, articulate enough, thoughtful enough, and engaged enough to do this!

Yeah.... when it's typed out like that, you can see where some of the problems lie. :-)

I don't know if that rings true for you, but for me it's definitely been part of a larger goal of stepping back and letting people handle situations on their own without swooping in to rescue them all the time -- especially because, in reality, "rescue" rarely works, and the attempt often muddies or complicates the situation (like creating resentment where there doesn't need to be) rather than solving it.

I hear you occhiblu, about being a savior. I have that tendency too. Additionally, I tend to do these kinds of things as "insurance" that people will continue to like me. I know I'm falling into this trap when someone says, "I can't believe how THOUGHTFUL you are!" and inside I say, "YES!"

When that happens I try to remember that friendship and love aren't about that.

You know what that first part also sounds like to me? The being a real sweetheart and remembering the things your friends like and doing things for them? Is that your love language is a combination of Gift Giving and Acts of Service. You give the people you care about little gifts, you go out of your way to do things for them. Which is awesome. But it also sounds like people aren't returning that love with the same language.

Now, I know that the love languages book is very spiritual and Baptist-oriented, but it really makes a lot of sense to me on a non-spiritual level. There are different way to show people that you love them, and some ways come more naturally than others.

Me? I'm a Physical Touch kind of person. A hand on the arm, rub on the back, even a playful punch. This doesn't go over too well in the workplace, so I've learned to adapt. My ex showed love in different ways, and his lack of touch angered me and broke my heart. I needed physical touch to know that he loved me. A good partner will learn how to show love in ways that their partner needs, and communicate how they need to be loved. It's not easy.

So, back to Gift Giving - couple this with a savior complex and not feeling like you're getting shown love in your particular language can lead to complete burn out. It's hard to communicate to others what you need when your love language just comes so naturally to you. I don't understand gift giving as a way to show love, but I have a friend who does and I try to remember to get her little things now and then. It feels so trite and staged to me, but she really, really appreciates it.

Holy man, occhiblu...That rings scarily true. I also have a need to be needed, and it seems that this behavior really plays into that. Coincidentally, my Mom is a need to be needed, wants to save folks, kind of person (see? It's ALWAYS mom's fault. note to mecha-moms: don't even bother trying, we blame you anyway).

I wonder, if by stepping back in my youth, that maybe I went for a girl like I did, because she could only be taken care of by ME. THEN she would notice how wonderful my care was, and THEN she would love me back in the SAME WAY I WANTED HER TO.

One of the things I'm working on is as you say...if it's going to make me feel resentful, I'm trying to pass. Thing is, in many cases, these things are hard coded into my roles in life, so I need to tread carefully if I hope to cut some of them out. Tis food for thought though.

P.S. I've noticed a couple times that some folks get pretty indignant about random attempts to rescue them. Why, you'd think they didn't really need it!

(now, on preview, yeah that does make some sense too rhapsodie. Love Languages sure sound corny, but it also sounds, in your description to make some sense)

P.S. I've noticed a couple times that some folks get pretty indignant about random attempts to rescue them. Why, you'd think they didn't really need it!

Ha! Yes. I've also been having a rather illuminating time dealing with a classmate who drives me completely insane; for the past year I've thought of her as just a total know-it-all without the smarts to justify it.

I've been learning, in a class we have together, that she has the same "MUST RESCUE EVERYONE!" tendencies, and my annoyance at her suddenly made sense -- she does the same thing I wish I would stop doing.

Sigh. It's sometimes kind of annoying when these life lessons come along. It'd be much easier just to hate her. :-)

I think one thing that might help is to ask yourself why you do those things-certainly you do it to show love and caring, and I am not minimizing that, but there is something else going on as well-I think your observation about the former girlfriend is spot on, for example.

I have a friend whose love language is giftgiving and whose emotional tank is on empty for lots of reasons way beyond her control-she goes way overboard with giftgiving for folks and doesn't realize that she makes us uncomfortable sometimes-for instance, she met my husband ONCE and then the next week, knowing it was his fiftieth birthday, stopped by and gave him a card.

With fifty bucks in it.

She had already left by the time we opened it (she also gave me flowers and a card as well-it was right after Valentines day and both of us were home sick with flu.) All I could do is call her on her cell and tell her she was a turkeybutt.

I am not in a position to do much financial reciprocating, and frankly, sometimes I resent her generosity just a little bit when directed at me-however my love language is time spent and I do spend quite a bit with her, and she seems to really appreciate it, so there's that.

I guess in all my rambling, what I want to say is, it's okay to take pleasure in making someone happy-but if you do things while even unconsciously expecting others to do similar things for you you are setting yourself up for resentment and disappointment. It's okay to step back a little-in some cases it might actually improve your relationships. (But don't stop treating your missus. Just sayin'.)

Also, this:

I wonder, if by stepping back in my youth, that maybe I went for a girl like I did, because she could only be taken care of by ME. THEN she would notice how wonderful my care was, and THEN she would love me back in the SAME WAY I WANTED HER TO.

reminds me of a story I heard that originated with Angeles Arrien:

She was sitting in a flower garden in the Bay Area, kind of tucked away in a little grove. A mother and her son came into the garden, but didn't see her. The little boy picked a flower, turned to his mother, and said, "Here Mom! I'm giving you this flower because you're so beautiful!"

And the mother took the flower, and smiled sadly and said, "Thanks, but why don't you ever tell me you love me?"

Arrien said that she wondered what she could learn from having seen that interaction, and she came to the realization that we are always surrounded by love, but we often don't recognize it because it's not coming at us in the form we expect.

Yup yup yup. I often wonder what I don't see while I am busy looking for things I recognize. It really is a very hard lesson to learn. I suspect that I will eventually really get it that it's not about what we take in from life, but what we put OUT that matters. It's hard when you are almost done your 30s and have spend a good 20 years thinking you are one of the smartest, savviest folks THERE IS.

And, truthfully, there is nothing more annoying than running into someone who exhibits the traits/behaviors you dislike most in yourself. I have an uncle who hated his father, but was sooo unable to see how much he was just like is dad. It was brutal to see sometimes.

wonderful story

and my annoyance at her suddenly made sense -- she does the same thing I wish I would stop doing.

I just wanted to stop and say OMG yes! I don't really want to go into details, but 95% of the time, I am annoyed by someone because I am guilty of the very same thing. Like aggressively challenging people's words, even in casual situations, and gossiping, etc. etc.

I'm not much of a gift giver. Probably because receiving gifts makes me very uncomfortable. If my husband gives gifts, I'm fine with it. If a new friend, patient, or an acquaintance gives me a gift I feel ill at ease. Of course, I profusely thank them and tell them they shouldn't have. I really am thankful, but really, I wish they wouldn't have. I feel a need to reciprocate. I'm not that thoughtful in advance and I'm especially not that organized. I will most likely forget to buy a thoughtful gift and then I will feel like a jerk when you buy me a thoughtful gift.

There are times when I think a person is so terrific that I want to make something for them or buy them a little gift. I hesitate and second guess myself because I don't want them to feel obligated to give me a gift. This is my own anxiety getting in the way of doing something nice for somebody because I want to. There are no ulterior motives. This past Christmas I stopped at the florist and bought my very sweet coworkers (only three other than myself in my department) fancy potted poinsettias. Wouldn't you know, the next day one of my coworkers shows up on her day off to give me an ornament. I knew she had not intended to give a gift. I would had rather she just enjoyed the plant.

This past Christmas after all of my Christmas cards were sent a person I really admire sent me a Christmas card. I was so touched by this particular card. The message was casual, short and sweet, but I was so happy and touched to receive this card. I never did get around to sending that wonderful person a card and I still feel bad about it to this day.

On the other hand...

I also had a period in my life where I thought I knew best and wanted to save people and only I could do it. A long period.

I remember an incident that happened about twelve years ago. The mother of one of my closest friends had died. There were going to be a ton of people at her house after the funeral and she was a little concerned about the state of her bathroom. I went out and bought new mats and towels and cleaned her bathroom and made it look nice for guests. The thing is, she never thanked me or complimented the job and I was a little bit, just a tiny bit, insulted. I am very sad and embarrassed that I was even thinking about an acknowledgment. Her mother had just died. What was I thinking?

I've done things or bought things for others to feel superior. Look at me, I can afford to do that. I'm special and thoughtful. Don't you wish you could do that? Ugh. Not something I'm proud of. It's not something I ever want to do again.

I don't know if I have a point or any advice after all of this rambling. You're very nice, richat. You seem like a great guy and I'm betting most of those thoughtful gestures and gifts are coming from the right place. Most of your friends are probably very appreciative but their personality inhibits them from reciprocating in a way that you deem thoughtful.

I completely agree with rhapsodie on the love languages thing. I'd much rather receive a genuine compliment than a Reece's Blizzard. :-)

occhiblu, that is a wonderful story.

I like to do nice things for friends and often do. For me, however, I find it best to do it and forget about it. I try to follow my natural impulses and I'm usually pretty good at remembering birthdays and things my friends like. I don't keep a 'tally' or list and I certainly don't put the needs of others before my own.
HOWEVER, maybe I'm lucky - 'cause whenever I need something, I just ask and I usually get it. And it's always a nice surprise when people do things for you on your birthday or Xmas or whenever.

It can work out...really.

>Advice?

You'd totally hate me. I'd be thoughtful like that, but I just forget... Some of us out here are just a bit vague and absent-minded, (and/or are worried about overstepping boundaries/offending/just thinking too much about crap). I'm sorry.

It's not just me. We're all sorry. We're just like that.

Please please let the rational side have a say too!

This is a great discussion - so many things to consider.

I know that I'm much more comfortable giving than receiving and have been mentally working on "grateful receiving", because I know how much enjoyment I get from doing something for someone else. And, I do berate myself if I forget someone's birthday or such.

Thanks for the good thoughts and comments - this is an issue I must think about. I learn something every day here. Cheers!