The number one rule is probably not calling it "Indian Giving", a term that more than a few people find offensive.

It's been three years. Tell her you can't find it but you'll keep looking for it.

Oddly, I am reading this book, which discusses the provenance of this term. It's a fascinating, if somewhat dry, read.

I would just say no, sorry it was a gift to me and is the only memento I have of her.

Should've been another comma after 'sorry'.

I'd give it to her. I have no use for physical mementos. They're just more clutter.

the Indian has to agree.

I'd give it to her. I have no use for physical mementos. They're just more clutter.

I have to disagree with this. A small keepsake of someone who's died, especially if it's of little monetary value but which triggers happy memories, is precious beyond words.

A small keepsake of someone who's died, especially if it's of little monetary value but which triggers happy memories, is precious beyond words.

Agreed.

I would probably buy another pin that's similar but not exactly the same and send that one, with a note like, "Sorry, I find I can't part with the original. I hope this poor substitute will suffice" because I'm a pushover.

I thought "Indian Giver" referred to the military and government that took back or never really gave what was promised. If you ask me, and no one did, I say use the term so no one forgets what they did.

As for returning your item. You are under no obligation to return it. I guess it comes down to family harmony. It might cause more problems hanging on to it.

I thought "Indian Giver" referred to the military and government that took back or never really gave what was promised.

From the above-mentioned book:

In 1764, when Thomas Hutchinson wrote his history of Massachusetts, the term was already an old saying: "An Indian Gift," he told his readers, "is a proverbial expression signifying a present for which an equivalent return is expected." We still use this, of course, calling a friend an Indian giver who is so uncivilized as to ask us to return a gift he [sic] has given.

The context is that a gift, as distinct from Commerce, is supposed to circulate through a community. Not the exact gift, but the essence or spirit of the gift is not supposed to be held onto, but passed on freely.

But in this case, the trinket stays with you, or that is my opinion. Especially since it was asked for in order to allay a kid's tantrum.

It's between that mom and her daughter, IMO.

My first reaction was wow, what chutzpah. But then, I'm thinking, maybe the daughter's "fit" was really an expression of grief, at missing her aunt. In that light, I might send it back, maybe with a note sharing a memory you have of your half-sister. In that way, it helps bring everyone closer instead of cause division or resentment.

Thanks Danf

Thanks everyone, I appreciate your candor.

Item, You made me cry.

What do you call it when someone gives you a gift and then asks for it back? Seriously, no meanness or snark intended. I sincerely would like to know what to call that behavior.

Please know that I in no way meant any racist or offensive connotation by that turn of phrase, I honestly typed that with no ill-will attached and I am offended that you think I intended to use my own pain and hurt to denigrate anyone.

I didn't see that in your comment goml. Some people just want to be on a soapbox all the time.

goml, I was not meaning to call you on the carpet either. It was just striking that I read, just last night, about the term.

I hope it all works out and everyone can move on, in whatever way. I can see how it would totally suck for you.

((hug))

goml - I don't think anyone was meaning to call you to the carpet or imply that you were being intentionally insensitive. What you're going through sucks, and I wish I could give you a great big hug right now.

People just jump the gun sometimes when phrases like "indian giver" or "gypped" or whatever are used. I don't think that's necessarily a bad thing, but perhaps in the future we should all be more careful to be sensitive towards those in sucktastic situations like this one.

What do you call it when someone gives you a gift and then asks for it back? Seriously, no meanness or snark intended. I sincerely would like to know what to call that behavior.

I call that "asshole-ish", but I suppose that's pretty unspecific. :)

This thread is hitting a nerve with me, because my aunt left me something in her will - a diamond ring. Her only son is Executor of the estate, and the ring is in his daughter's possession.

My aunt had very specific reasons why she wanted me to have it - he has two daughters and she couldn't choose between them. She also did not want there to be any chance of their mother, the son's ex-wife, getting her hands on it.

My aunt made her will 12 years ago, but when I saw her on her 89th birthday she mentioned leaving me this ring again. By this time she had two great-granddaughters and she said that if she couldn't choose between her two granddaughters, then she certainly wouldn't be able to choose one of her great-granddaughters either. She knew I had always admired this ring, and that I would treasure it. My cousin was in the room when we had this conversation.

So, a few weeks after she died her son, my cousin, called me about this ring. His daughter has it in her possession and she's 'very fond of it'. I have no issue with it being in her possession, my aunt had carers and home helps in and out of her home in her later years, so it made sense for valuables to be kept elsewhere.

But then the pressure started. My cousin asked me if I would be prepared to accept the monetary value for it. Although I knew I would not, I told him I would think about it. I called him a couple of weeks later and said no, I really wanted the ring, and he knew his mother wanted me to have it too. I thought that would be the end of it. He's the Executor, he has to carry out his mother's wishes.

Since then I've had two "Just hear me out ..." phone calls from him, trying to get me to change my mind. I can understand him asking me once if I'd be prepared to sell the ring back to the estate, but once I said no, that should have been an end to it. A professional Executor such as a lawyer or accountant would simply have said "hand it over, it's not yours, I have to pass it on to Jan". In the end I had to say to my cousin, when he kept going on about how his daughter's feelings were hurt, "Look, I have feelings in this too."

I spoke to him on Christmas Eve and he mentioned that he has now got the ring from his daughter and will arrange in the New Year to send it to me (probably by insured mail - I don't think either of us is planning on a visit to Manchester by me or London by him in the near future).

I really struggled with the "well, she was the granddaughter and I'm only the niece, maybe she does have more of a claim on it than me" guilt trip, but the bottom line is that if my aunt had wanted her to have it, she'd have left it to her. She was sharp as a tack right up until she died, and if she'd said at any time to me "I know I said in my will you should have it but I'd really like Jane to have it" then I'd have had no qualms about leaving it with her.

I've gone on a bit of a ramble here with this, but, as I said at the start, this has hit a nerve with me and I understand the feelings this situation with the pin has brought up for you, goml.

I would also call it 'Indian giving'. I don't know any other term for it.

I'd give it to her. I have no use for physical mementos. They're just more clutter.

You're a Buddhist, aren't you?

You're a Buddhist, aren't you?

Yes, I am.

Attachment and so forth... It was something that was a part of my personal ethos all along though. As long as I've lived on my own I've made a conscious effort not to accumulate things with no utilitarian or aesthetic value in my home, and I regularly purge it of useless stuff. For me, living in the present is very important. It's enough to know where I've been and whom I've known. MI think this is important to me because I have grown up seeing the opposite type of behavior in my mom. She is a person who is pretty much overwhelmed with regrets and keeps her house as a museum to dead family members. For years she insisted on hanging on to a couch that was so ugly and beat up that most rednecks would think twice about putting on their porches. She paid to have this thing, and a whole bunch of other gubbins shipped to the States from Australia. I've never seen her make an effort to fully engage in the present moment. I've come to see her behavior as building a living tomb for herself and it deeply saddens and disgusts me.

I hope that explains my aversion to mementos.

I hope that explains my aversion to mementos.

One of my aunts (who I had not met before this) kept trying to make me take one of the roses from my mother's funeral, to dry it "and remember her by."

One, and most important, I'm unlikely to forget my mother. Really, I've got that one covered.

Two, I sat there thinking, "Great, I'll have to figure out how to dry the thing, then I'll have to figure out where to put it so I won't lose it, then I'll have to keep track of it every time I move, then I'll of course eventually lose the thing, which I will end up feeling guilty about, even though I didn't want it in the first place." I managed to put on a half-sincere smile while firmly saying, "No, I don't want the flower."

That said... I treasure the jewelry I inherited from my mother, because it meant a lot to her and it's something I use rather than something whose sole purpose is to serve as a memory-inducing aid.

Anyway. If it were me, I would be offended by the request and I'd just use the standard Miss Manners reply of "I'm sorry, but that won't be possible."

(And What do you call it when someone gives you a gift and then asks for it back? I'd just call it rude. I don't think it's something that really needs the dignity of its own name, anyway.)

That situation sucks, goml, and I can't believe she had the affrontery to ask you for it back. Whether or not you return it is up to you, but you're certainly not obliged to as far as I'm concerned. I also don't think it sends a good message to kids that they can have whatever they want and damn the feelings of other people. Pips may well have a point re: the possible underlying reason for the fit, but that doesn't make what her mother did to you right or in any way justifiable.

*wanders off, muttering about kids today, safe in her non-parent status*

If the item has sentimental value to you and was given as a gift I don't think you have any oligation to return it. Even if it was "just a trinket" when you first received it but has come to mean more to you over the years, I think it's unreasonable for her to expect it back. Hopefully just explaining that it has special meaning to you beyond just being a piece of jewelry will be enough for her to drop the issue. Maybe it's just a bigger deal in your head than it really it is. At least I hope so.

But I would not tell her that you lost it or can't find it. That not only means that you have to make sure it's never seen by her or her daughter, but also trivializes the value that you place on it. And if they ever do it see it again, it would seem perfectly alright to expect it back since it meant so little to you that you didn't keep track of it. I think you'll fell better about it if you confronted it honestly rather than making an excuse, which might also attach some guilt to the sentimentality of it.

I hope that explains my aversion to mementos.

Indeed it does. It was a very "zen" position on the topic of mementos, I had to ask.

I'm nthing the position of replying that turning the trinket over would not be possible as it has meaning to you. The girl will have to learn that sometimes you don't get what you want and no tantrum can change that. If the girl really does want it for senitmental purposes then maybe she should come to you and give her reasons for wanting it. THen you could decide whether or not to pass it along, until then it is yours and you should keep it. I would have been insulted if this had been asked of me, implying that this trinket meant nothing to me and I would have not passed it on. Good luck on this goml. I'll send happy, non-family-fighting thoughts your way.

A. Wouldn't waste my time.

B. Just say no.

Ouch. This is a hard position to be put in, but I agree with Slack-a-gogo, LunaticFringe, elizard and that line of thinking. Kids today (whether the young lady in question is 16 or 26) really do need to learn that they can't have everything. It's been three years, for heavens' sake!

That said; this struck a nerve with me as well. When my grandmother passed away, one of my aunts told me that she wanted me to have her paint brushes and artist supplies, but a different aunt took them for her own daughter. I was hurt, since my cousin to this day has never painted a picture, and my grandmother always encouraged my artistic efforts. It hurt, also, that the aunt who took the items was my favorite aunt. I've never really brought it up to her, but it's been 14 years and it still irks me.

Your cousin's daughter was not promised the pin, did not bring up the pin for three years, and has made no compelling reason for you to give the pin up. I say keep it.