So if you see me smiling and being nice to you? Unless you've earned it, I'm doing it because I have to. Consider it a shield and a poison sword.

By the way, everyone on this site has earned it. so don't worry.

BtGoG - I know what you mean! I've been planning a wedding recently, and I'm slowly learning that it's possible to be really agressive on the inside and coat it in smiling, "I totally care about your opinion and we'll table this discussion for a future time". It's completely contrary to my nature, but it's way more effective than arguing and pissing anyone off.

In other words, even if the teacup's on the outside, you can still be a tiger on the inside.

Every time I don't kill someone, I'm just being polite.

This reminded me of an essay I read yesterday, on how women are penalized for being assertive in the workplace. You might find it interesting and/or heartening to know you're not alone.

I feel for you. Sorry.

Perhaps we are all "posers" to some extent when we interact with most people. There are days when I could just snap someone's head off, but don't. And, I'm way more radical than anyone would really know. It often seams easier to "fit in" than strike our own chord... *sigh*.

IRFH- good quote from Lawrence of Arabia:

With Major Lawrence, mercy is a passion. With me, it is merely good manners. You may judge which motive is the more reliable.

btgof, it's possible that they aren't liking you better, they're just being nicer. I'm nicer to small, weak people because I figure they need it. People I view as equals I'm less solicitous of.

But if you need niceness right now, it's worth it to act as though you do. I'm a big believer in acting the part. For instance, if you feel like you're going insane, looking and sounding completely stable won't get you as much help as showing up with your pants inside out. Of course, managing to get the help you need without getting way too much "help" is a very nice judgement call.

What makes you think that other people are "brainwashed"? I don't get that part. On the whole, people are less threatened by self-efacing behavior, and concequently nicer.

It's funny how kindness works.

Hugh, on preview this is going to sound a little angry - believe me, I'm not angry at you. I respect what you've written on this site and I am sure that you're a good person. This rant is directed at a situation, not at you.

But as regards kindness: can you clarify that? How does using a small voice = kindness? I can assure you, my normal voice isn't shouting or anything. I'm no bull in a china shop. I'm poised, friendly, and pretty damn normal. My voice is just more Randi Rhodes than Paris Hilton. And what I am doing right now literally feels like a fake costume voice to me.

How are you defining kindness? Kindness has nothing whatsoever to do with making ones self small. It's just being aware of your surroundings and being respectful of others. It's not abasing yourself.

I'd really like to know what you mean, because maybe I'm barking up the wrong tree here, and there's too much of me. In which case - if I'm that off base - I'd REALLY rather not bother trying to build a life for myself and all that shit. Because I absolutely refuse to believe that the froofy voice is supposed to be my REAL voice, that that voice is how I'm supposed to go through life.

I've gotten academic awards, impressed the hell out of people, sold big projects, organised big demonstrations and rallies and a hella fuck ton more with my BIG VOICE and my BIG PERSONALITY. And guess what? I'm kind! I work my ass off to please people. And it generally works. I'm generally doing okay. I have big friends who like big me.

And to think that anybody - a boss, a friend, a lover - gets their buttons pushed by a LITTLE KITTEN VOICE and slinking around like they own your very life? Fuck that. If that's the life I'm offered, if I can either act like myself or make others happy, then I'd rather have no life at all.

And as regards the tiger? Everybody seems to either want to kill the tiger or train the tiger to drink tea out of the tea cup. Being me on the inside doesn't work when I can't ever be me on the outside.

BtGoG, can I ask why you were using a soft voice and tiptoeing around? Do you sometimes use a soft voice, and assert yourself less, or were you conducting an experiment?

You can't please all of the people all of the time.

I was assertive yesterday and I was very proud of myself. But later in the day I kind of apologized, when an apology wasn't warranted. I'm still green in the speaking my mind in a constructive way department.

I was like, wow, that wasn't difficult. Will do more often!

It was an experiment, LoriFLA. Best of luck with your assertiveness!

I read Hugh's comment differently, BtGoG. To me, in your post, you seemed angry if others showed you kindness. Maybe they're just trying to get through their day the same as you. You're very intense. Maybe you scare them a little. (You scare me a little. Not that I'm not fond of you.)

(feel free not to smile : )

First of all, I'd like to point out that I don't respect what I've written on this site, nor do I consider myself a good person -- you think of me more highly than do I.

I didn't explain myself well in my one-liner, and I gave you a reason to get mad, and I'd understand if you were bent out of shape at me. Here I am, speaking in a small, humble voice:

Actually, I meant what I said in response to pieisexactlythree's comment directly above mine. What I meant was, it's funny how people aren't inclined to be kind to people who don't make them feel good, in whatever way they are made to feel good (cutesy little voices, &c.) People feel good about being good to people, but are rarely good to people whose behavior doesn't fit their ideal of good. I was kinda agreeing with you. And that's about it.

But my off-the-cuff style made it unclear what the hell I was saying, and I'm sorry to have added fuel to your fire. Like you, I'm not very good at bending to others' expectations, but then I don't have a stack of assumptions about how demure I should be working against me. There may be other expectations that are as onerous, but nobody wants to talk about them here, least of all me.

Anyway, yeah, I would hate having to sound all meek and childlike just to get shit done at my job. As a matter of fact, I'd quit. But I wouldn't self-destruct. And neither should you. At risk of sounding pedantic or like I'm giving advice, don't think so lowly of yourself. Who cares what others think, right? So you shouldn't care that so many people think highly of you. But fuck you with that self-destructive shit (I don't mean that as an insult), don't even think about being dead or DISAPPEARED, asshole (again, not an insult), or not having a life at all, because that leaves a gaping hole and no you to fill it up. Fuck that binary thinking, find others to please if you have to, but don't get on with that givvy-uppy talk, that's just bullshit.

So, in short, don't give up being you, fuck you if you think you should, stick around because even if it doesn't get better you're still somehow worth it, and I don't know, don't get offended by all my swearing at you? I don't want you to misunderstand me; I'm not trying to insult you, but I think giving up is fucking dumb.

But yeah, I didn't mean to ruffle you up like that. Carry on, you loudmouthed beauty.

BtGoG, you're our Justice Crusader, no-one can shut you up.

Making nice is sometimes necessary to get to the higher good, but not at the cost of your own self-esteem.

You complain about your job quite a bit, BtGoG. About how it makes you feel alienated, how your boss doesn't like the way you are. About how you feel you need to change to fit in. I agree with HJ - maybe it's time to say, "Fuck this!" and get the hell out of there. In my job now, if I tip-toed around like a lil mouse, kept my head down and didn't argue my point, people wouldn't think, "She's nice," they'd think, "Who's she?" Maybe the people around you are jealous of how BIG you are, how you fill up their aural space (not a bad thing, but small people can be threatened by that sort of thing). Maybe they're nice to the "meek you" because they feel less threatened by you, or because they've noticed the different and are wondering if you've had a bad day, or it's just confirmation bias, or...

I apologise for scaring you, Pips.

So far, guys, the counsellor isn't working. I need skills to be less intense and not to scare people, without it hurting my self esteem.

Over time, I have discovered my inner bitch. I try to be reasonable, and to accommodate other people's needs, and even anticipate them. I used to feel like a small person who did not deserve to be taken seriously. Lots of (very boring, I assure you) reasons for all this (but the Statute of Limitations on bitching about my dysfunctional childhood has run out).

At some point, my inner voice was complaining about not being taken seriously. My Inner Bitch (perfectly capable of turning on me, that bitch) spoke up and said "Do you take yourself seriously?" and since then, I try to take myself seriously. Not in the sententious way, but I decided I'm well worth listening to, my needs and opinions are valid, and I deserve good things. It's been a useful transformation of how I think about myself. Some change in my attitude has meant that others seem to take me a bit more seriously.

You can have what you want without anybody else being hurt. You deserve good things.

and, I'm not askeered o'you. Nope.

Best quote I've heard in awhile, on a Metro North train, from one of a group of college-age guys:

"She's a horrible, horrible bitch, and I find that so sexy."

Well, I'll tell you I've gotten a big lesson about that since I moved to the SF Bay area. In LA, you are supposed to be passionate & gung ho about your creative work, and to have an edge is a really good thing that people work hard to acquire. The Bay area? Edge is bad, it's an insult to say someone has one. Too much energy is considered off-putting, you need to play things closer to the vest. Too much confidence? People mistake it for arrogance, and that's not good. Only yesterday I talked my way into a potential client interview that I've been trying to get for 3 years. How did I do it? By being really self-effacing. None of that "selling yourself" stuff, I was meek and almost apologetic and saying, "I don't want to bother you, but I know I'm good at what I do I would just like to be given a chance if you could meet with me." I've never approached a potential client so meekly in my life. It was weird. I felt kind of pathetic and almost whiny, and in return I got my foot in the door.

I don't like it either. I'd rather be appreciated for the passionate, gung-ho, edgy (in a good way!!!!) person I am inside. I feel tamed and defeated, and it kinda sucks. I miss my edge. I liked it.

So just in case it makes you feel better, you're not alone.

And building on miss lynnster's point, I don't think that the Bay Area "self-effacing" people are any more fake or brainwashed than the LA "high energy" people - they're just different cultures and different personalities are more suited for those cultures. If you want to thrive in your environment, BtGoG (and it sounds like you don't want to jump ship), then you've got to be a cultural-anthropologist-type and learn to play at being what you're not. But a tiger with sheathed claws is still dangerous.

Interesting that you bring this up now. I just started on the phones at my new position (basically using all of a quarter of my skills from the old one- so it really is pretty new), and everyone basically admits that they're throwing me to the wolves since the person just above me who I report to is going on vacation in six weeks and I need to fill in for them so I have to be ready by then.

It was commented that I sound about ten years younger on the phone than I do in person. Which is true, I do. And I only do at work. But, I've also noticed everyone who is thought of as a nightmare to deal with is always perfectly fine with me, to the point of being overly nice and polite.

So I do it. And I don't really care if sounding like a teenage girl makes me seem overly submissive, or like a pushover. Since in reality it just means I'm better able to turn the tables on the manipulative dirtbags who would be jerks otherwise and play the game against them. They pull some macho card and try to bully me, I pull the sweet little girl card and they feel bad for it, and I'm known around the office as the girl who can deal with the monsters and win.

But then, my company is "the middleman" and even before my title involved the word "sales" I was basically in sales, so it's all acting anyways.

i'll attend to this when i am more attentive to any sense of "real" self i have but acting is so much a part of what dealing with people is about and what makes me so "surprisingly" "adept" at whatever i have to be doing--
--wait, what thread is this?

i repeat this for the nth billionth time:
repeat neutrally the following in some respect:
1) "I am sorry you feel this way"
2) "I have felt this may myself"
3" "There is nothing I can do as this is not within my realm of control."

It not only works in many instances, but is the truth.

I refuse to pretend to be something I'm not....but my looks give the impression that I'm a naive 20-something cow. I hate fake friendliness and unctuousness; I'd much rather have graveness than be subjected to something one isn't feeling.

Also, the serenity prayer isn't just for the various Anonymous groups.

You're NOT a piece of shit, BtGoG.

i am so many facets of a self
can i say none of them is a facet of my true self?
When i am a coquette or a warrior or a master or a naive
am i all of them or none
am i all of them or one?
When can i say i am not the battle chief?
When can i say not am not the student of the naif?
Maybe greater than i is the person who is only a sole
and not the mutable creature parts of a whole
i am a pupil or teacher or watcher
of a greater purpose than i have in hand to capture

--written doggerel on the fly
for someone far greater than i

Hey, By the Grace of God, I'm sorry I came off as such a dick yesterday (I'm supposed to be a big asshole, not a dick, eeew!); I really hope you can sort this out in a way that makes you proud to be as cool as you are. I get mouthy when people I care about talk self-destruction, that's all.

Thanks everyone for your comments.

You didn't come off as a dick. I hear that sort of thing all the time from people. I'm not going anywhree, I just really really really really really want people to know that this is how I actually feel. I don't feel like getting out of bed, I don't feel like cleaning up, I don't feel like going to work, I don't feel like doing my political work, and I especially don't feel like being nice to people, and I REALLY especially don't feel like doing work on myself to make myself accepted in this fetid, pestilential world.

But I'm doing it anyway.

And I'll keep doing it as long as my energy holds out.

But at this point, I'm like, fuck you, banana, fuck you, orange juice, fuck you 8 hours sleep, fuck you, exercise, why am I doing this shit to feel better if it's not working?

I do feel just the way I said in my post. What the rest of you should know is that those of us who don't act on those feelings still feel them. We're here, suffering as we comply with the expectations the world puts on us to function.

Well, yeah, if you acted on those feelings, you wouldn't feel anything at all. I suffer as I live in a world without people who felt a little more like you do than you. I don't mean COMPLY, DO WHAT YOU SHOULD, I just mean don't... give up, giving up makes the baby Hugh Janus cry. And don't put too much stock in how you're perceived at work (or wherever you feel you have to put up a false front); your internal life is where you live, and your external life is where others live with you. They're both valuable, but only one is essential.

I haven't always had the chance to speak to people when situations have been bad, so I go overboard in preventive persuasion. I don't know what to say but that you're not alone. How lame. I still think you're pretty great, even though you seem to want to fuck bananas and orange juice (you mean those frozen cans of concentrate? brrrr).

Fwiw, orange juice makes me depressed and crabby, especially if I drink it first thing in the morning. I may as well have a coke.

At work, I'll announce I'm in a shitty mood and the whole world sucks, but that's the end of that conversation. I try to be civil the rest of the day.

For myself, acting the way I feel doesn't make me feel any better. All I've done is make the people around me miserable, and I'm STILL pissy. So I fake it. When the people around me are happier I'm usually happier. Or at least I haven't started a big negative feedback loop.

I apologise for scaring you, Pips.

So far, guys, the counsellor isn't working. I need skills to be less intense and not to scare people, without it hurting my self esteem.

I didn't notice this yesterday... no worries, BtGoG. For what it's worth, I happen to adore you. I know we've never met, but I hope someday we will. I think I'm more "me" here than in "real life" anyway. I tend to be rather quiet in person.

I understand about meltdowns. I had a wicked one a couple days ago when I had to go see my mom and help her with my niece, who's been in the hospital with cellullitis in her leg. I don't know why, but I just couldn't cope. Poor Jon. He walked me to the train, and I kept ranting about how I hate my mom and hate my family and don't want to go. I can usually catch this kind of thing nowadays before it gets so bad, but this time the stress got the better of me. I swear, it's taken me twenty-plus years to develop any kind of coping skills at all and realize that usually the problem is not so much other people (or, at least, not only other people), but me. Ironically, realizing that gives me a greater sense of control. However others act, I can trust myself to cope and deal with the situation. Little things I let go, but when it's important, I speak up. And as with others, it's taken me a long time not to worry so much if everyone likes me or not.

Sounds to me like you already have a lot of skills that you don't give yourself credit for. The rest is a slow process. Forgive yourself when you slip. No one's perfect. (I need to take my own advice more.) And don't be so quick to give up on counseling. Whatever strategies they can give you to cope better can't hurt (pass them along to me, please), plus it gives you another safe place, if you will, to vent and talk things out. In any case, I hope you're feeling a little better today. Some days, all I can do is shut down and go to bed. And that's okay, too. But then I get up, make the bed, do the dishes, go to work (when school's in session). In truth, the summers off save me. I'm not sure how I'd manage in a year-round job.

Anyways, I blather. I mean what I say, though. I think you actually have a lot of strength, and I admire that, occasional meltdowns or not. : )

By the Grace of God, add me to the list of those who adore you, despite never having met you. The occasional meltdown is what makes us human - anyone who can go through life without it all becoming too much from time to time is either not living or is not human. Mo impression of you is that you live a full life and the cost of that is always going to be the occasional drama. Embrace them as a sign that you care - that's a good thing.