Not to say I hate anyone who goes by "Mrs.," just that I wish there was a single standard address for women rather than all this tomfoolery.

Tomfoolery, I tell you!

I usually use Ms. because I'm contrary like that and, IIRC, the reason for the invention of Ms. was so that women's marital status was not immediately on display or even part of the equation. And I like that. But then one time I got an angry note - beautifully hand written on engraved stationery, in that shaky but calligraphic elderly hand - from a lady who objected to the use of Ms. on her address label because, she said, she was not a manuscript.

But displaying marital status keeps me from wasting time hitting on women who are not single! Won't somebody think of the pi?

mgl, that's entirely too wonderful!

And yes, I'm dealing with a lot of rich old women (and men), so I don't want to goof it up either way, because I suspect doing so would be considered a major faux pas.

pi, do you go trolling mailing lists for dates? :-)

This remind me of a Cathy (yes, that Cathy) comic that had me in stitches when I was a kid.

Dude says (to Cathy): -"So what are you, a miss, Mrs or Ms?"
Cathy: -"What are you? A Mr, Mr or Mr?"

I had a teacher in high school who said, PLEASE, do not call her Miss Whatever, she is MRS. Whatever, because she EARNED her M-R-S degree. Man, that woman was a nut (once she told us all that an asteroid was coming to destroy the earth).

This seems like as good of a place as any to tell my favorite mailing list/donor story.

When I ran the circulation department of a magazine, we'd often get little notes written on renewal forms, mostly from elderly subscribers. Sometimes they praised the magazine, sometimes they complained about delivery problems, sometimes they were grocery lists.

The best, though, was the one that said, in shaky Old Man script, "APHASIA! I CANNOT SPEAK!"

The end.

And, on preview, I had a teacher in HS who, outside her classroom, posted pictures of a UFO she'd seen in Arizona.

I don't use a title. I call female patients and female elders, Ms., married or not. You never know. If I have to choose, I choose Ms.

I don't like Miss, unless, you're 12 or under.

TPS, OMG!

I used to work with a woman that was convinced that the space shuttle launches caused weather changes.

But displaying marital status keeps me from wasting time hitting on women who are not single!

Dude. I'm an unmarried Ms. (that's Miz Elsa to y'all), and as attached and unavailable as any married woman I know. More unavailable than some married women I know. *wink*

The best, though, was the one that said, in shaky Old Man script, "APHASIA! I CANNOT SPEAK!"

Ha!

Did he want y'all to stop calling him, or was it just a friendly heads-up?

I am *so* tempted here just to decide that everyone's a Ms. Even the men.

Question: When a female half of a married couple goes by "Ms." but has taken her husband's name, then the correct form in addressing both of them would be "Mr. and Ms. X," yes? I'm trying to think if I've ever seen that, because it sounds weird in my head.

pi, do you go trolling mailing lists for dates? :-)
Holy shit! That's a great idea!

occhiblu: that's what I would use, but I don't know a specific rule per se.

Yes, occhi. If she refers to herself as Ms., she's always a Ms.

I hate, hate, hate Mrs. Especially Mrs. Hisfirstname Hislastname. That irks me to the bone. It's amazing to me how put off some of the other parents at my kid's preschool are that we don't have the same last name. They act like that's such a foreign concept. "So what should my child call you then? Mrs. Rossi?" No. It's not Mrs. Rossi. I don't know of any woman who goes by Mrs. MaidenName. It's Ms. MS! It should be the default! And TRUST ME this is not going to be the last time you come across this situation. Not when divorce and remarriage is so common.

I just pick one, as with all things beyond my ken or control, when I'm wrong I shrug and say, "Oh, sorry."

If they're still mad, or if I'm supposed to be embarrassed by my gaffe for long, fuck 'em.

I guess I'm supposed to rail against the system that confers men's names on women and forces married women into a titular yoke they may strain to carry. But I can't muster much piss and vinegar when I've got a surname I'd love to lose; my mother's maiden name is neat, crisp and classy, impeccably English and would match well with my repp tie and fresh-out-of-the-Academy unfurrowed brow, while my dad's family name is virtually unspellable, unpronounceable to my countrymen, and European ethnic, and is of course not one of the cute, charming, or acceptable European ethnicities, like Irish or Italian, but German, scary, violent, dangerous, and representative of all the national and personal evils of Central Europe since the sack of Rome. Oh, how life would have been had I been named for my mother and not my father... first in alphabetical line, no confusion from teachers, nobody laughing at my name for their inability to say it, no constant second-thoughts as to whether I should write under a pen name (Hugh Janus, anyone?). I'm sure I would've been happier that way, and folks would think my stern German-ness was actually chipper English-ness. What a lie I'd live, and what a life I'd lead!

I don't much like being addressed with some honorific, and I could see being annoyed by having some code that would advertise my marital status permanently appended to my name. I could also see shrugging my shoulders about it, whether it was my mistake or someone else's. It's one of those things that will fade with time, but if you think it's worth embarrassing someone over an innocent mistake they've been trained to make since childhood, you're probably wrong.

Now, if they're doing it to be an asshole or to make you uncomfortable, or if you just like hurting polite people's feelings, have at it. You rock.

I am naming my children Mister, Miss, and Misses.

OK, now I've got a gender-neutral first name and a male partner with a different last name. How to proceed???

Sigh.

Yeah, jrossi, I know she's always be "Ms.", but it's the combined form I'm tripping over -- I can't recall ever seeing "Mr. and Ms. Lastname" written out in any sort of formal setting. (Whereas "Mr. X and Ms. Y" turns up fairly often in etiquette guides, if the halves of the couple have different last names.)

But it is more than entirely possible that I haven't seen it simply because I haven't been looking that hard.

Hrmmm, the Emily Post Institute is showing:

Mr. John Kelly and Ms. Jane Kelly
Ms. Jane Kelly and Mr. John Kelly
*Do not link Ms. to the husband's name:
Mr. and Ms. John Kelly is incorrect

On the other hand, I have never heard of the Emily Post Institute (though of course I've heard of Emily Post) until just this minute...

Oh, duh, that's because they've got his first name, and she's not "Ms. John Kelly."

Don't mind me, just talking to myself... la di da...

I hate "Mrs."

I understand what you're getting at, but I sometimes call my wife 'the missus,' just cause it feels good to remember she's my wife.

As far as terms of address, I generally call people 'sir' and 'ma'am' in formal situations until they ask me to call them by their first names which they usually do.

but if you think it's worth embarrassing someone over an innocent mistake they've been trained to make since childhood, you're probably wrong.

C'mon, Hugh. You know me better than that. There are a lot of people around here that refuse to use Ms. or address me by my maiden name because they have a problem with it (and feminists and anything resembling a liberal). This includes members of my own family and all of my in-laws. They're the ones I correct. I'm not a screeching banshee.

(the only term of address that actually irks me is when store clerks call me 'boss.' I'm not your boss, I'm your customer.)

Yeah, I don't like any sort of honorific either, and am always "just call me [gaspode]." If they insist, and ask, I'll say "Ms." If they are assholes and insist on "Mrs." after I've requested the ms. then I will insist on "Dr."

I really meant "you" in a far more general sense than you've taken it, jrossi4r. As a matter of fact, when I wrote what I did, I wasn't thinking of you at all. And I certainly didn't mean to be offensive; I realize that I'm not one with a real dog in this race and thus have a relatively weightless opinion, but that's all I was doing here, offering my opinion, not offense.

You weren't offensive, Hugh. I was concerned that I was. I know I have a tendency to overstate my opinion. It's all good.

You're still my baby, baby.

I can imagine "boss" being annoying. I always found "master" as a title for boys pretty irritating.

Something I've often wondered: in American teen movies, the boy calls the girl's father "Sir". Does that actually happen in real life, or is it just a teen film cliche?

I don't think I've ever called anyone "Sir" or "Ma'am" in my life (and that includes a couple of conversations with people who are actually entitled to be called "Sir").

Yeah, I don't like any sort of honorific either,

Sure thing, Doc. ;>

(I kid, but I remember that at my sisters wedding, my brother-in-law's brother (who even my mother referred to as 'pretentious,' which is saying something) insisted on being introduced at the reception as 'Doctor [jonmc's relation by marriage].' Silly man, considering he was a PH. D., not an MD.)

I don't think I've ever called anyone "Sir" or
"Ma'am" in my life

Well, I don't insist on it, but I think everybody deserves that small bit of courtesy and respect and it makes me feel good to give it.

Awwww, shucks, jrossi4r.

*puts hands in back pockets, kicks dirt*

I call people "sir" all the time. And "ma'am." Usually, the more frequently they've been called sir, the less frequently I call them "sir," and vice versa. Thus, I "sir" kids, panhandlers, and taxi drivers most, and hereditary nobility, golf pros, and my CEO least.

I also remember this woamn I used to work with back in my bookstore days. She was kind of neurotic and nutty but OK. One day her father came in. The guy was pushing 80 and had an oxygen tank in tow. She had mentioned in previous conversations that her Dad had commanded an aircraft carrier and introduced him as 'my Dad, Captain [last name]. At the time, it struck me as excessively formal, but in retrospect it's kind of touching. He passed away not long after. And FWIW, I responded with 'nice to meet you, sir.'

Hmm, cultural differences. I don't think people in Britain call each other Sir and Ma'am much (except in certain types of shop, and the police and the army and so on). I like the captain story, jonmc.

Thanks, matthewr. And I generally tend toward the informal, but my years working in retail and other factors have veered me a small level of standing on ceremony. (and 'Captain' in the navy is one rank below the various 'Admirals' so that does command a certain respect).

matthewr, I think it varies by region here. "Sir" and "ma'am" are *hugely* common in the South, to the point where many adults would find it an insult for kids not to use them. (About two weeks after I moved to Atlanta, the vice principal of my middle school stopped to ask me something, and when I answered her she glared and me and said, "Yes, what?" I had no idea what I was supposed to say, so I just looked at her. "Yes, MA'AM!!!!" she yelled. It was terrifying.)

Anyway.

I don't think it's quite so common in other areas, but it would certainly always be considered polite. And I definitely use it when trying to get the attention of a stranger ("Ma'am, you dropped something" or "Sir, the cashier is open" or whatever). I think the teen movie thing comes in because calling the date's father "sir" can indicate either that the young man is super polite, and therefore a bit dorky, or that the guy's a schmoozer trying to pretend to be super-polite. Both characters are rather common in American teen movies.

Hmmm. I generally am more apt to use the 'sir' and 'ma'am' on older people. People my own age and younger, I'm much more informal with. But, I've noticed that I'll adress priests as 'Father,' (even passing on the street, I'll say 'afternoon, Father') and police as 'Officer.' It's partly the way I was raised, and partly experience telling me that a small bit of respect can go a long way.

and I didn't date in high school, but later on when I met my dates' parents, it was 'Mr & Mrs [last name]' until they told me otherwise. I don't think that's dorky, neccessarily. Just respectful.

Yeah, we were taught in school to answer with Yes Ma'am/Sir too. I still do it with elderly people, but I've gotten out of the habit with most everyone else, mostly because people in California look at you funny when you say it.

That's different from the Ma'am/Sir used when addressing a stranger but not answering a question -- "Excuse me, ma'am, you dropped your wallet." That's more common and, for some reason, not as weird.

That said, I'd MUCH rather be called "ma'am" than "miss," which is what I usually get. "Miss" makes me feel like an 11-year old. I know people are trying to be polite and avoid implications of age, but I hate it.

In Montreal, where I grew up, no one ever called anyone Sir or Ma'am. You did hear "Monsieur" and "Madame" in French, but there were no corresponding English honorifics.

I was very surprised to start hearing them in the Midwest. I'd grown up thinking they were archaic or Southern only.

Oooh, I hated the transition from "miss" to "ma'am." And the first time someone called me "signora" rather than "signorina" in Italy I almost cried (I was only 21).

But I do feel like I'm old enough now to be a "ma'am," and "miss" feels dismissive.

Which is exactly why I hate the premised of "Miss" and "Mrs." I have nothing against either, but I find it annoying that women are supposed to change their names/identities based on age and marital status.

Which is exactly why I hate the premised of "Miss" and "Mrs." I have nothing against either, but I find it annoying that women are supposed to change their names/identities based on age and marital status.

Well, marital staus is a whole other issue I'll grant you, but the age thing I see as the progression from 'Kid,' (which I've been informally called by older people) to 'Mister.' Which sort of just an acknowlegement of the passage of time.

(the big exception I make to formal addresses is with waitresses and barmaids. If they call me 'honey' or 'sweetie' their tip goes up 10% automatically. It's a guy thing, I think)

I was brought up in the South (Southern California that is - ha!), and was taught to use sir and ma'am (or Mr. and Miz) until told differently.

Me, I don't use any honorifics unless pushed and then, although I'm married, it's Ms. My mum addressed her first mail to me after I married as "Mrs. Hisfirstname Hislastname". Bitch. [Just kidding, she was joking.]

I'm with you, Occhi. I've gotta send all sorts of formal mail (to pornographers, natch, who sometimes stand on ceremony), and I hate the confusion over Mrs. Ms. Miss when I don't know their first names. Sure, it's a little bit due to a feminist upbringing, but more it's laziness. Stupid women, coming up with complicated etiquette!

But I do tend to go all sir an' ma'am on people that I don't know, just by reflex. Saves time, I think. And I definitely have trouble calling the parents of women I'm dating by anything but Sir and Ma'am. Mr. and Mrs. Chatfield if I'm feeling a little bit more relaxed, but they're always trying to get me to call them Pete and Candy, and frankly, they're far too uptight for me to ever feel comfortable doing so. Plus, Candy's a silly name for a woman.

Anecdotal aside: My best friend growing up, we'll call her Little Janie Smith. Her family's mailbox didn't have just their surname on it. It actually said "The John Smiths," like they were all just an extension of her father.

Another anecdote: My mom always used to sign checks and things with "Mrs. Hisfirstname Hislastname," but she stopped doing it several years ago. Never thought to ask why, but I sure was glad when she changed it.

I hate getting ma'amed. Very much.

The weirdest Southernism to me is "Mizz (first name)" - often taught to children to address close friends of the family or teachers. Even my manager at work calls a co-worker Mizz (first name) even though she is only five years older than him - they are both in their fifties. It's laden with age and status stuff. Brrrr.

I also have a habit that I try to curtail, but it just doesn't come up that often, of introducing myself to children who have reached a sentient age by my first name. I should probably let their parents introduce me, but it's always like, "rainbaby, this is/you remember Benoit" - and I say "Hi, I'm rainbaby" - and offer a handshake. It's my instinct, but not my decision.

Most younger kids call me Mr. When I was teaching, I was Mr. When Mrs. Plinth was teaching, she was Mrs., although most of the rest of the staff was Ms. - I think it was really an acknowledgement that we were married.

Meantime, I insist that my nephew call me Uncle Plinth rather than just Plinth. He does it most of the time. In fact, he calls me Uncle more often than my daughter calls me daddy. She calls me mommy when she really wants something badly, or mommydaddy when she catches herself.

Having been born and raised in California, my default is to use a person’s first name; titles are generally reserved for doctors and the police. Since the formality scale is about the same here in Seattle, I don’t think I’ve put any noses out of joint. Working with an elderly population, however, can make that a little tricky. Most of the folks I deal with on the job are just fine with being on a first-name basis. There are a few, however, who very definitely are not. I can usually pick up on that vibe right away and use the appropriate Mr. or Mrs., although I’ve misjudged once or twice.

Myself, I really hate being Mistered. I recently received an email from a local young musician who wanted me to listen to some demos his band had made and give them my feedback. I told him I’d be happy to do so, to which he replied, and I quote, “Thanks, Mr. Markey!”. Now, I know he was just trying to be polite and respectful and all that, but in that context it just made me feel a thousand years old.

I've always used Ms. And I dislike professional titles immensely.

That said, my surname will always be "of (male version)" even if it's my dad's. Genitive possessive, they call it, I think. Clearly the Ms is the least of my problems. Heh.

But I am amused, in the wrong sort of way, when someone uses Ms/Mrs/Miss/Mr (first name). That is because I translate from the Greek where Mr (first name) is so wrong, it is nearly a mockery.

I saw Miss Manners speak at the 92nd st Y a few years ago--one of the things she said were that southern USAian manners (Uncle or Aunt firstname for an older person who isn't necessarily a relative---I guess Miss/ Mr firstname would fall in this category too)were actually West African manners.

It annoys me no end to be called Mrs. lastname by the people connected with the work done in my place---I'm able to live here through my own means. The Mrs's in my family are chupahija and my aunt. The only way to address a woman whose marital status one doesn't know is Ms. She will let you know otherwise.

I also loathe being called pet names by strangers (sweetheart, sunshine, darling, honey...); only "ma'am" is polite.

One of my regrets of not having a Ph.D is not being able to say: "That's DR. lastname" (which is perfectly valid if it's been earned), when someone I don't know socially thinks they can start in by using my first name.

one of the things she said were that southern USAian manners (Uncle or Aunt firstname for an older person who isn't necessarily a relative)...were actually West African manners.

That makes sense to me. I definitely feel like this sort of traditional etiquette is still really strong among black communities.

I kind of like "Miz Occhi," but that's mostly because I associate it with my desire to be a Southern belle. Which also gives it a weird veneer of plantation-era slave-owner, though, so I can see where it gets tricky. But I think it's kind of a nice compromise when the "Miz So and So" is older than the person using the address but not really old enough to fall into the kid's parents' generation.

Though, thinking about it, does it relate back to whether the woman's married? Would you use "Miz Firstname" with a young married woman? I feel probably not... so now it's basically stripping the last name from a woman who hasn't taken her husband's?

Sigh. This is all very complicated.

But it's Miss Occhi if you're nasty.