Oh I identify. I'm at work, can't write much now but will respond in detail this evening.

1. "and I'm NOT marrying him to get him one"

2. "Or a connection that's deeply heartfelt, incredibly romantic"

3. "& so torturously intangible that it can never freaking go anywhere but someday you can write a book about it"

imho, if the first statement is true then the second might not be true and if the third statement is true then the second might not be true also.

Sometimes it is possible to love a relationship more than a person.

I guess you can't visit him? That would've been my idea - visit him for an extended period to see if a day-to-day face-to-face relationship works or kills the romantic connection.

LDRs rule! Especially when the LD part ends.

Then again, some people are drawn to relationships of distance because it allows them freedom. Freedom from smothering closeness. Freedom to idealize the other person without the crushing realities of their real-life personality flaws. Freedom to love the idea of a person rather the person themself.

miss lynnster, I'm in the same boat you are in right now, and oh god does it hurt.
She lives in Boston, and I think she's the love of my life, but she refuses to take me seriously. I tried to tell her how I feel about her, but she dismissed me outright. I tried to let it go, and tried to make myself attracted to other women, and succeeded for awhile, but how can you forget someone who might be the potential love of your life?

*nods head, sheds tear*

I understand, although mine is considerably shorter of a distance...i am waiting for her to realize how important i am to her.

(((miss lynnster)))

*hugs*

I hope things work out for you and second the idea of you going to visit him and seeing what would happen. Then you can decide how best to get the two of you in the same country.

A few things I have to say about this. Based on being in a few related situations.

1. The dynamic in which you relate to him right now would be profoundly different IF you two were able to get together on a permanent basis. In a way, it would be like starting at square one. In other words, wanting and having are different things.

2. Did you meet this person online, or in the "real" world, somewhere? I am not sure if this matters, but it might be relevant to know if there is some physical chemistry.

3. LTR's or online relationships are unique in that, in the surface world, when people pair up, there ensues, usually household issues, kids, expenses, garden, car payments, etc etc. All the stuff that we do in the surface world together. This can be a kind of "glue" that provides conversation fodder and a shared sense of going forward. In an LTR, it is harder to set something up like that, and after several years, one runs out of things to talk about.

4. Even with #3, it is REAL, with this person. I have no doubt that there is a real, emotional, romantic connection. One has the whole range of feelings and experiences. (It is also the safest sex there IS.) I do not doubt that you carry him with you.

5. The similar deal I was in. . .at one point I tried to break it off. I told her this on the phone, but in the end I couldn't. It went on for several more years until it ran out of gas. We started being busier in our surface lives, and the "hold" of it got less and less. Got online less. It started to be more stilted on the phone, and even talking it out did not keep it from fading away. Even though it ended with a whimper and not a bang, it felt like a tragedy for me.

So lynnster, everyone is different. I wish you the best, and I hope that it turns out well, however the chips fall.

arse_hat makes a good point. It's easier to romanticize someone who is far, far away then to have a real relationship with someone you can see, touch and feel.

Is it better to have a long-term, tangible relationship that's meh? Short-term, tangible dating relationships that crash & burn? Or a connection that's deeply heartfelt, incredibly romantic & so torturously intangible that it can never freaking go anywhere but someday you can write a book about it?

None of the above. Hold out for what's real.

Hoo, boy. No comment.

Thanks, technology!

It's amazing to think that people could have long-distance romances before technology. Why, I know a crazy couple that was long-distance for 5 years, because he was stationed overseas with the Marines. They had not been in the same physical space for 10 days before they got MARRIED. MARRIED!!! Those nutters!!!

And now, 25 years later, they are still married, and they have the greatest oldest daughter known to Western civilization.

Well, see here's the thing. He's a very westernized Egyptian. And we actually got to know eachother by being stuck in a car together for 20 hours through the Saharan desert. Neither of us had any interest in the other, neither of us really wanted to be in a car for 20 hours. He was stuffed in the car by his employer, and I was jet lagged and wondering why the Sahara couldn't be designed in a way that was more convenient for my driving needs. :) He was also not my type physically, I'd never ever been attracted to Middle Eastern men in my life (except the occasional Sayyid from Lost swoon). But then when the 20 hours were up, he actually said, "This is too bad, we didn't finish our conversation." It was that kind of thing. And I realized that I was kinda being sucked into how nice his eyes were. He would've lost his job for fraternizing with me, but for my last four days in Egypt he snuck me out of my hotel & we spent about 10-5am wandering all around Cairo, trying to avoid being seen by his coworkers. (Our first kiss was in a dark, hidden corner of the Cairo TGI Fridays because neither of us would normally be caught dead there.) We were pushing Muslim social laws, but it definitely wasn't something either of us looked for or expected... we just liked hanging out with each other. When he dropped me off at the airport, he was doing his job again so we had to pretend we didn't know eachother. I had to shake his hand and politely thank him for his services along with everyone else. I whispered thank you into his ear and that I'd do my best to be a good friend to him for as long as I could. And then I walked to the gate, looking straight ahead. When I looked back, he was staring through the plate glass window & I could see he was crying but trying to hide it from his coworkers.

It was one of those things. And I just haven't been through anything quite that dramatic before. So that's what I mean when I say it's the kind of thing you could write a book about.

Still I told myself it was no big deal because I'm practical that way. Told myself it was just vacation pheremones or whatever. Focused on all of the ways I was not attracted to him and all of the ways he was unsuitable in real life. It was just an adventure that I'd leave there & I would move on. But then after I got home we started talking on Skype. For hours. It'll be nighttime for him and early morning for me, and we'll both be lying on our couches talking. About everything. And I don't talk to ANYONE for hours on the phone anymore, I hate the damn phone. Sometimes we talk every 3 days or so about our daily stuff, as though we're down the street from eachother. Then I'll try to not talk to him for a few weeks and forget about him. I'll concentrate on my life but I don't forget, and then when we hear eachother's voices again it's clear how much we missed them. We have our bad days where we get on eachother's nerves, and we get through that too. We've actually really gotten to know eachother and I realized that in a way he's become one of my best friends, even though I really wish he wasn't & he's pretty much invisible. I'm fully aware the relationship would be different if we were in the same room (or even the same state). But since we're not, it's a moot point.

I've told myself that I should appreciate good things for what they are though instead of sabotaging them or dumping a good friendship just because it's unconventional or not easy. So that's what I do. I go back & forth appreciating and hating. Saying "fuck this" and then calming down and thanking God for the experience. What else can ya do but accept things for what they are? I do enjoy calling him my friend.

I dated a Yugoslavian for 7 years and it was SO hard. He'd been in the country for 30 years but the culture differences were still an issue. So I know that being with a guy who's never even LEFT his country (especially a muslim country - although he's not a good muslim) would be that times fifty. And I am NOT moving to Cairo. I don't want to give up everything I have here. Plus I could never truly "belong" in Egypt & I'd be very homesick for America if I moved there, I know that. I can't afford to visit until next year, and part of me tells myself I don't even want to see him again because either way it will suck. If we don't get along, that'll suck. If we get along & I have to leave that'll suck.

I know we'll meet again eventually. But dammit I'd really rather he lived down the street so I could've just dated him and gotten it over with, realizing we hate the way the other person brushes their teeth or that he snores too much or some other handy superficial deal breaker. Life's easier when you can think of relationships as easily replaceable. But I just don't know that this one really is, I guess. Urg.

2500 miles here, for about a year. Me: in DC, divorced, with a kid who lived with her mom nearby. Her: in Oregon, divorced, with 2 kids in shared custody with her ex. Luckily, she was a .com millionaire, so we were able to see each other every month or so and do some fun stuff together. Both of us had been married for pretty much our entire adult lives, so it was a good way for us to get back into the dating game. Things fell apart, though, when we started talking about one (or both) of us moving. Neither of us wanted to leave our kid(s), and neither of us thought we could convince an ex-spouse to move. Really, though, it was more the prospect of moving that was the issue, I think. I know for me, the prospect of seeing her every day brought all the other little issues into stark relief. Sure, we had fun together, and loved each other with a passion neither had ever felt before, but, you know, I hated how she criticized my driving, or how she always sang along to the radio, stuff like that, things that would have likely kept us apart in the first place, but things we didn't really notice since we didn't see each other every day. It's an odd sort of reversal of events, you know? Usually, you see someone superficially before you see him or her deeply, but long-distance relationships are the other way around--you fall in love first, then learn about their quirks and such. The actual breakup was nice and gentle--we got together one last time, said our goodbyes, and had a nice weekend together. The aftermath, not so much--I think we both sort of were holding onto the possibility of a reunion, but then we both started dating others, and the anger and jealousy set in.

Wow, long.

One point, though, is that it was all real. My ex-wife liked to criticize my relationship as some sort of fairy tale, a virtual romance, something less than real, but it was definitely the most formative romantic relationship of my life.

or how she always sang along to the radio, stuff like that, things that would have likely kept us apart in the first place,

For me, NOT singing along with the radio would be a deal breaker. I guess to each their own.

*smile*

Well written, mrmoonpie, and much truth, especially about the realness.

All relationships are hard in their way. LDRs sometimes give you an additional brain-chemical high, I think, from the Romeo-and-Juliet drama and yearning and vexation and all that. Some of that is just caused by the situation, not the person. The day-to-day poses different and more prosaic challenges, as others have said. It is a real pity you can't 'try it out' a bit more often than distance and finances let you, because those visits could really help you get some awareness of the reality such a relationship would be.

misslynster, are you seeing a counselor by any chance? I just might suggest it because you are describing the emotional ping-pong that a little outside clarity can be really helpful with.

My cousin's married to an Egyptian man (though he's Coptic Christian) and seems very happy.

Good luck resolving this situation; it indeed carries its own brand of pain and frustration, but in the end it falls within the general 'love, dammit' category.

tldr

You think YOUR comment is long, mrmoonpie? I can't believe I wrote all of that up there. Okay... and so I guess Wedge wants me to know that he thought it was long too so he didn't read it. Which... I don't really care because I was writing it more to vent. But thanks for the lovely critique there, Wedge.

I'm really not much for emotional ping pong so that's the problem, really. My clarity usually tells me that I shouldn't be putting effort in, that it isn't "real" enough. But for all of the difficulties I'd be lying if I said it hasn't added to my life as well. I think in many ways I'm a better person for the experience. While it'll suck to move on, if we found other people we'd both be happy for eachother. And I like to think we'll still be friends long afterwards. Time will tell though.

I've had two LDRs, one a fling-thing that was fabulous online but a disaster f2f, and the other with George, who I'd met in an online group we were both members of. We were friends first, and my first visit to Ohio was as a guest of his family, staying in one of their rental cabins. Our friendship was as real in person as it had been online and we were both surprised to find a deep physical attraction to each other too, and by the end of that three weeks we were both warily smoothing the callouses off each other's battered and broken hearts and thinking there might be something other than friendship ahead for us.

Once home we talked every day either by email or phone. When we discussed making it a more permanent thing, we both knew that he couldn't move to the UK - there were several reasons why - his two sons, his elderly parents and the family farm.

So we took a sensible decision that I would seek a 3-month leave of absence from work (unpaid), save up like hell to cover my bills while I was away and then go out to the US for the full 90 days allowed under the visa waiver programme. Then I wouldn't be burning all my bridges in case it didn't work out, and we would have 'real' time together, the changing of a season.

Well, it was not meant to be, so here I am still in Essex. I'm not unhappy to be here, but it wasn't what I'd been hoping for.

My problem is that (generalisation time here) I don't really like British men, and I like American men very much. There's an openness about American men that I find very attractive and sexy. I wish I could describe it better, but it's something to do with a kind of parochialism and small-mindedness that is peculiarly British which I find to be a complete turn-off.

So I am resigned to maybe another LDR, but I've learned to not predict the future because I don't know what might happen next. The very idea of me dating right now is laughable anyway, with my current mindset.

Hang in there essexjan. ;) I feel your pain. I tend to get along well with men who aren't from America because we've usually experienced each other's cultures & meet somewhere in between. And I'm so fascinated by the world and different perspectives, that I find the conversations really cool. (Although as mentioned above, it's also clearly difficult). When I've dated American men who haven't been out of the US much (which has been my experience so far), it just hasn't been a comfortable fit for me. I tended to think in a more of a global citizen way than they did, or they felt insecure because they hadn't been to the places I have so I'd have to avoid talking about it. It's no fun to know you have to censor who you are like that. I love travel too much to pretend it's not important to me.

MissLynnster, sounds like you're trying really hard to talk yourself out of it. Also sounds like you really want it. I say kill the little voice in your head that tells you it's a bad thing, and find a way to spend a week with him in neutral territory. Stop thinking and overthinking and thinking ahead and shit!

And wedge is just being an ass, as usual. Ignore.

Well, either way it ain't happening for a long time. Egypt is far away. And I have a life I need to live until then. Y'know?

If he lived in any country other than Egypt it would be different and not as big of a problem, he could come for a visit. But it's difficult for him to get a visa to leave so the ball remains in my court all the time. Yuck.

Miss Lynnster, you never know.

My friend Amelia just married a Syrian-American guy whose extended family have all been in California for a while. They'd planned to spend their honeymoon in Egypt, but for some unexplained reason Michael's visa application was declined.

Amelia immediately wrote back, explained that they'd fallen in love listening to Egyptian music, and they'd been looking forward for years to this trip together; wouldn't they relent and let them spend a few weeks in their beautiful country? And the Egyptian government relented.

They've been in Cairo since Sunday.

Even in the worst case, I think love is elusive enough so that it has to be celebrated wherever it arises. Obviously my priorities aren't everyone's, but I can't imagine rejecting a real connection just because a conventional relationship seems impossible.

Thanks for listening to me vent you all. :)

I can get into Egypt fine, I just have no money for it right now. The issue on his end is that other countries will not approve him for a visitor's visa because they fear that people coming from Egypt will never return to Egypt. He's paid the application fees for a visa before, bought plane tickets to show his return date and was still denied. So although he is very westernized and wants to see the world, he's basically trapped there. And not thrilled about it.

That really sucks. I mean, I'm just about ready to weep after reading your posts in this thread miss lynnster.

I think love is elusive enough so that it has to be celebrated wherever it arises. [...] I can't imagine rejecting a real connection just because a conventional relationship seems impossible.

I am copying this and sav-or-ing it for repetitive reference, with your permission. Very nicely said, tangerine. Utopic for some, but really nice for me.

That's beautiful, tangerine.

I don't think that long distance loves, impossible loves, romantic loves are bad, as long as you leave your heart open to possibilities that are closer to home. You don't have to settle for meh, but don't throw out WOW if he comes along.

Yeah, that's kinda where I'm at, just what tangerine said. That's why I haven't let myself pick fights with him when I've wanted to. Because for all of the lame & masochistic aspects of it, it's also very cool. And I have to admire that.

arse_hat makes a good point. It's easier to romanticize someone who is far, far away then to have a real relationship with someone you can see, touch and feel.
Of course, the huge problem with long distance relationships is that you don't share all the humdrum stuff of life like putting out the garbage and doing the dishes and buying groceries and walking into the toilet just after he spent an hour there and having to hold your breath and ... Everything is exciting because your whole lives are compressed into the time you spend together, so the dreary stuff gets simply ignored. Real life has a habit of making you deal with the dreary stuff sooner or later and you can't concentrate real life the way you can a long distance relationship.

arse_hat makes another excellent point about loving the relationship more than the person - your comment that you are not prepared to do something that could bring the two of you together puts a ceiling on your feelings (and there's nothing wrong with that) that ensures the relationship can't go any further. if you haven't already, you should ask yourself how far you are really prepared to go to be with your man and think about what that says about the relationship.

It sounds like you have a really good friend there and, sometimes, friendships can work better at a distance for the same reasons that romantic relationships often don't - because they are not burdened by all the hum-drum of existence and you can focus on the things that matter to both of you.

Good luck, but I have a feeling this is not what you want it to be.

I have been speaking on the phone for two hours every day for six years with someone 2500 miles away that I have never met in person. Like others have said above, the relationship has been the epitome of romance that never quite developed in previous marriages.

We talk about what we did at work, how we are feeling physically, mentally and emotionally ... but all by phone or internets. We exchange birthday and other holiday gifts, we even celebrate a pseudo anniversary each year.

But, I understand how torn you are. She is my best friend, I love her dearly, I wouldn't know what to do without her. Yet, everyday I yearn to touch her, to hold her hand, to comfort her when she's in pain. Because of a debilitating disease, though, she is unable to travel herself or accept visitors. So we may never meet. And, it hurts ...

Can you possibly get a cheap flight to somewhere in Europe, and meet up there? That wouldn't be nearly as expensive, and if he's never left Egypt, he'd get a chance to see a bit more of the world, too.

I suggested that last year. But after 911 he tried to go to France & England & couldn't get a visa there either. Generally only the wealthy can swing it. We talked about going to Greece but then that didn't work out either... plus if I'm going to splurge on going to Greece I might as well just hop across the Mediterranean to Egypt. Same basic difference really.

Our relationship began in person (and against our wills pretty much) while stuffed in a car under not the best circumstances & that's what was fun. We both actually like sharing the day to day humdrum stuff with eachother so that's what we feel like we miss out on, really. We talk while I'm doing laundry a lot.

In my mind, I'm not fighting being with someone as much as I feel like I'm being realistic, though. I have no money right now but frankly, even if I did I do not WANT to move to a Muslim country, especially not for someone I've only spent a few weeks with before. As a woman in Egypt, I would have fewer rights... I never forget that I am profoundly grateful to be an American woman and in my mind there is no person truly worth giving those freedoms up for. They are far too important. I'm not that romantic. (If there was any way he could come here I'd be totally supportive though.)

Thanks again, by the way. I feel like I got that nice rant out of my system & was really able to concentrate on other things afterwards. Yay. I think I just needed to say that stuff out loud after keeping it inside for a long time. Yay metachat.