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19 December 2005

Outburst Inside →[More:]HOW CAN PEOPLE WRITE SO BADLY???? I know I've bitched about this before, but today it's really getting me. How can you not match verbs with their correct prepositions? How can you deploy words in a fashion that indicates you clearly have no idea what they mean? How can you be an adult and yet incapable of constructing a sentence with both a subject and a verb? What the fuck is wrong with you?

Okay, thanks.
post by: dame at: 14:46 | 78 comments
I are brian damedged.
posted by me3dia 19 December | 14:49
i hate punctuation, grammar and rules of language in general. spelling i like okay, but i could live without it.
posted by weretable and the undead chairs 19 December | 14:52
I completely proselytize with the message you be indicativating.
posted by tetsuo 19 December | 14:53
I blame the schools. But then again i blame the schools when I lose money in a pay phone.

I may be strange, but strict adherence to grammar & usage takes a backseat to comprehensibility and just having a way with words. Call me kooky.
posted by jonmc 19 December | 14:54
(S What the fuck
(S (VP is
(ADJP wrong
(PP with
(NP you)))))
posted by arse_hat 19 December | 14:55
I is thinking that we be many people, not samelike, more various made. This language that does fry itself into us is frondlike, has nodal properties. Not unlike brain. Why! it is most perfect. Challenges are made and with them the answers are grown. Like ice is grown on the window. So language is change-language and we are like wittgenstein, and as paridigms are lost, then so is the paridigms is found. Look out old-thinkingness. World has lower bandwidth, but higher latency. Woot!
posted by seanyboy 19 December | 14:55
WUI?

(writing under the influence)
posted by porpoise 19 December | 14:55
I need to see a link for this one, dame.
posted by Hugh Janus 19 December | 14:55
seanyboy, that's some deep-assed fuckin' shit, dude.
posted by jonmc 19 December | 14:57
Idiot college graduates can't read or write
posted by knave 19 December | 14:58
Verbing weirds language.
posted by loquacious 19 December | 15:02
nouns verbed by, adverbially adjectival.
posted by jonmc 19 December | 15:02
Meet Stanley
posted by urbanwhaleshark 19 December | 15:03
Don't forget spelling. Bad spelling really irks me!
posted by sisterhavana 19 December | 15:10
Al kip dat in miynd.
posted by jonmc 19 December | 15:12
Seanyboy, that makes so much more sense that what I am working on. And jon, the point of rules is to make things fucking comprehensible. It's not like a bunch of us are sitting over here with red pens just being assholes for the fun of it. Frankly, I don't care if authors break rules as long as it makes sense (though sometimes it's pretentious). But people who break rules for effect are people who knew and understood them in the first place. People who write tortuous sentences with words they only half understand and illogical prepositions are just morons. At this point, i can tell the difference.

(No linky, Hugh. On dead tree paper.)

(Also, yeah, I'm sure there are mispellings in there. Not proofing on my break. Sorry.
posted by dame 19 December | 15:15
I love seanyboy. Thet, is al.
posted by taz 19 December | 15:16
And jon, the point of rules is to make things fucking comprehensible.

I know. I'm just saying that if a writer can make himself understood, I'll cut him some slack over a misplaced comma or two.

But people who break rules for effect are people who knew and understood them in the first place.

Agreed. I'm talking about just plain old errors of omission. I'm sure my writing commits grammatical felonies (or at least health & safety code violations) all the time. Mainly because I can't be bothered.
posted by jonmc 19 December | 15:21
But people who break rules for effect are people who knew and understood them in the first place.

My favorite example of this is Picasso, because before he went Cubist, he learned how to portray the human figure accurately.

My favorite example of *not* following this? Rob Liefeld

Yes, I'm a comics nerd.
posted by TrishaLynn 19 December | 15:26
Why!

Indeed...
posted by eatitlive 19 December | 15:28
Dude, I'm not talking about misplaced commas. It's my job to be anal about them, of course, and I fix them, but a book that only needs some commas fixed is an editor's dream. I'm not even talking about the average lapses you see around here. I'm talking fundamental inability to write. I've said it before and I'll say it again: if people could see how books look when they first get handed over, they would be appalled.
posted by dame 19 December | 15:32
You forget, dame, I'm an editor, too. A different kind of editor, but the principle is similar. I am appalled regularly myself. Stones collections with Bobby Keys and Ian Stewart unmentioned under personell...aagh. (meaningless to most of you I realize, but a fundamental lapse to me).

One particular gem: my friend Kevin was working on an Edgar Winter deluxe reissue and under "Personell," was listed "Frankenstien."

True Story.

(some of you young-un's may not get that.)
posted by jonmc 19 December | 15:37
Why! it is most perfect.

Oh lord. I found that way too funny.
posted by SassHat 19 December | 15:40
I clearly do not understand your job, jon.
posted by dame 19 December | 15:45
I've explained my job to you like 952 billion times. I help edit a database of music information used by retailers and online businesses.

(and "Frankenstien," was the title of Edghar Winters biggest hit. not a member of his band.)
posted by jonmc 19 December | 15:47
Yeah. I think "help edit a database" sounds like "mwah mwah mwah" in my head. That is, I know that's what you do, but I don't know what that really means.
posted by dame 19 December | 15:50
Maybe no Frankenstein in the band, jonmc, but The Ghoul certainly was:
≡ Click to see image ≡
posted by Hugh Janus 19 December | 15:52
It means checking track listings against the actual CD, inputting personell. making sure that guest personell famous in their own right are cross referenced. That kinda stuff.
posted by jonmc 19 December | 15:52
I see. Is personell like personnel?
posted by dame 19 December | 15:53
Hugh: Edgar (and his equally famous and talented brother Johnny) Winter were albinos. Proof that extremely white men can play the blues. Still no word on whether blue men can sing the whites.

on preview: yes. my spelling sux.
posted by jonmc 19 December | 15:54
I couldn't help it.
posted by dame 19 December | 15:56
I know they're just albinos, but they still freak me out a little. I think some of it is on purpose.
posted by Hugh Janus 19 December | 15:58
I saw Johnny live at Madison Square Garden back in the day. He had his shirt off and under those bright lights I think you could see through him.
posted by jonmc 19 December | 16:06
Like Mr. Goodbody?
posted by Hugh Janus 19 December | 16:07
Yes, but with more soul. and less teeth.
posted by jonmc 19 December | 16:08
You're right Dame. It is utterly frustrating to try and make sense of things which have been constructed with little thought towards comprehension. It's a common occurence at the many poetry groups I attend for someone to throw a stream of unconnected words at you. It's both boring and tiring. It's tiring, because your brain spends excess fuel trying to make sense of white noise. (Like staring at a magic eye picture that at its 3-d heart is nothing but another magic eye picture.) It's boring, because ultimately you get nothing from it.

Bad poets will always tell you that they wrote it that way on purpose and the nonsense is simply ambiguity. That drives me mad. Them: "It's whatever you want it to mean." Me: "Arghhhh"

However, I love language, and I love to play with it. I like it sometimes that I can only nudge against the meaning of a piece I'm reading. I adore huge long sentences which leave no breath in your body and the feeling that you've been mugged.

I hate e.e. cummings though, but that's a story for another day.

I also love the constant flux of language. "cu l8r" is convenient shorthand, and cunningly brilliant in it's simplicity. I don't understand half of what is said in IRC channels, but the people in those IRC channels do understand it, and I love the fact that in our homogeneous world, the human desire for dialect still forces its way through. Polari, Cockney rhyming slang, the hidden languages of the knowledge professions; these things constantly amaze and delight me.

You're not talking about these things, of course. As an editor, you probably love language more than me. This is your editor's version of my "Stupid users.", and like me you're probably frustrated and humoured daily by people trying to find the "any" key or place two CDs in the CD Player. So I understand what you're saying, and although it always bridles me to hear someone say "Why can't people learn to speak English properly!", I may not sound like I do, but I understand what you mean, and I sympathise.

posted by seanyboy 19 December | 16:08
For the young-un's: Johnny Winter.
posted by jonmc 19 December | 16:10
Love you too taz. You Rock!
posted by seanyboy 19 December | 16:12
But, but, but seanyboy, e.e. cummings wrote "i will not kiss your fucking flag" and "there is some shit i will not eat" in the same poem!

Actually, i sing of olaf glad and big is the only e.e. I like. Prolly my Quaker education, you know, us conchies and whatnot.
posted by Hugh Janus 19 December | 16:13
"help edit a database" = "Help update the descriptions and cross references on an enormous electronic card index."

Hugh: two words. "Shape Poems".
I don't care what the historians say, but e.e. cummings is personally responsible for all that is bad in modern poetry. IMHO.
posted by seanyboy 19 December | 16:17
The real question is not HOW CAN PEOPLE WRITE SO BADLY? I mean, that's easy. How can people not understand fractions? Or integral calculus? Or Old English? The answer is just: they've never learned.

So the real question is: how can people write so badly, and yet end up writing for a living? (Or whatever capacity it is in which their writing passes your desk).
posted by teece 19 December | 16:18
Me and TrishaLynn were just having a smoke and I told her how much I love watching Telemundo. I love it because the news story could be about 400 grandmothers going over a cliff in a flaming bus, but it will still be delivered by very sexy woman with her boobs barely contained by a tight black dress. I can just see it:

"Buena tarde, soy Lola Hotchacha. Nuestra primera historia: Abuelas en Fuego!"
posted by jonmc 19 December | 16:27
Sort of, teece. Except there is way more writing in the average person's life than integral calculus. Likewise, beyond arithmetic, I pretty much only learned math in school. Writing is everywhere.

Beyond all that, my question wasn't really a question at all. It was a way of augmenting my groans, because alone they were not making me feel better: an outburst, as labeled.

Seanyboy, I will you give you a ten-second lead so you have a chance to escape before I chase you down and smother you with kisses. (I remember your accent, so that plus your awesome post only makes you too tasty.)

Hugh, my favorite Quaker poetry is, as you taught me, "Fight fight/Inner Light/Kill Quakers kill!"
posted by dame 19 December | 16:28
Jon: Hee hee hee.
posted by dame 19 December | 16:30
I know. The phrase "Abuelas en Fuego!" (for best results say it like Antonio Banderas in a particularly intense moment) has kept me giggling to myself for the past 15 minutes.
posted by jonmc 19 December | 16:31
Starts running, but only very, very slowly.
posted by seanyboy 19 December | 16:31
I still think that "Grandmothers on Fire" would be a GREAT band name.
posted by TrishaLynn 19 December | 16:38
It's a common occurence at the many poetry groups I attend for someone to throw a stream of unconnected words at you.

seanyboy, you need to to tell these poetry poseurs that their cover story is weak. The best way to defend the fact that your poem is complete fucking nonsense is to claim it is Language poetry.

Hell, if you're lucky, doing that might get you a job as an English professor.

(OK, that's slightly unfair to Language poets. Slightly).

It's tiring, because your brain spends excess fuel trying to make sense of white noise.

I actually wrote a poem about this very thing! It's not very good one, though.

Bad poets will always tell you that they wrote it that way on purpose and the nonsense is simply ambiguity.

I was surrounded by these people in the poetry classes I took. They were insulted at the fact that they were forced to learn things like rhythm and meter and other poetry tools, because they "just wanted to write poetry." Argh.

And I'm totally with jon on Telemundo. Hell, they are currently running a promo for one of their news programs that is nothing but busty women. Wearing low-cut tops, with push-up bras. On a news program. I also like to think that the language will just seep into my head via osmosis, so that I'll then be able to understand my in-laws.
posted by teece 19 December | 16:40
e.e.'s like the Beatles and music, then, seanyboy.

Not that the Beatles suck. Quite the contrary. But they inspired generations of musicians to think they're good just because they acquire a few beatlesque turns. They promote laziness and sap in inferior musicians, just as cummings inspired generations of crap himself.
posted by Hugh Janus 19 December | 16:41
Lola Hotchacha. Love her work.
posted by tetsuo 19 December | 16:42
Es mejor en español que pienso.
posted by jonmc 19 December | 16:42
Buena tarde, soy Lola Hotchacha

Now I'm picturing a gorgeous woman in a skin-tight black dress, her voluptuous breasts barely contained by the sheer fabric, with the head and voice of Jimmy Durante. HOT CHA CHA CHAAA!
posted by LeeJay 19 December | 16:44
I also like to think that the language will just seep into my head via osmosis, so that I'll then be able to understand my in-laws.

You'd be surprised how well that works. My two years in Miami improved my skills. I can now understand my dealer and know such hady phrases as:

Una cerveza, por favor.

Donde Esta El Bano?

Tantas curvas y yo no tengo frenos.

Estoy apesadumbrado, yo no sabía que ella era su hermana.
posted by jonmc 19 December | 16:46
You did what with my sister?
posted by LeeJay 19 December | 16:49
"I hate e.e. cummings though, but that's a story for another day.
"

i have a story for all of you entitled 'suck it, haters,' and it goes like this:


my sweet old etcetera

my sweet old etcetera
aunt lucy during the recent

war could and what
is more did tell you just
what everybody was fighting

for,
my sister

isabel created hundreds
(and
hundreds) of socks not to
mention shirts fleaproof earwarmers

etcetera wristers etcetera, my

mother hoped that

i would die etcetera
bravely of course my father used
to become hoarse talking about how it was
a privilege and if only he
could meanwhile my

self etcetera lay quietly
in the deep mud et

cetera
(dreaming,
et
cetera, of
Your smile
eyes knees and of your Etcetera)




by one certain e. e. cummings. next i will beat up people who think that w. c. williams sux0rs because of 'red wheelbarrow.'
for christ's sake he wrote it while one of his patients was dying! cut the man some slack and read, what's it called, the danse russe or whatever it is. booyakasha poetry.

also i challenge any of you grammatikos to an integral calculus fight. BRING IT.
posted by sam 19 December | 16:50
Thin White Rope - Dead Grammas on a Train.

Oh wait. Lo siento - es "Abuelitas Muertes en un Ferrocarril". I think.
posted by bmarkey 19 December | 16:52
You did what with my sister?

Took her out for a nice dinner of ropa vieja followed by a cafelito. Hope you don't mind.
posted by jonmc 19 December | 16:53
cummings hid some gorgeous poetry behind his stylistic play:

ecco the ugliest sub suburban skyline on earth between whose dowdy houses looms an eggyellow smear of wintery sunset

[Yes, I completely eliminated his line breaks here.]
posted by It's Raining Florence Henderson 19 December | 16:53
I was too busy reading in calculus class.
posted by dame 19 December | 16:59
also i challenge any of you grammatikos to an integral calculus fight. BRING IT.

The calculus is strong in that one. But has he mastered analysis? I fear he may turn to the dark side.

I also love ee. There's a hell of a good universe next door, let's go.

WCW is also very good. I could go on forever. I like most poets -- except Language poets. And Gertrude Stein. She was a fascinating and important woman, but her poetry was dreck. Wilbur wrote what is my current favorite poem: "The Death of a Toad."

But I should quit talking about poetry in dame's thread, as she doesn't like the stuff.
posted by teece 19 December | 17:01
I like poetry. I just hate poets. Especially people who claim they are poets now. In fact, I can see at least ten poetry books from where I sit now. So there.
posted by dame 19 December | 17:03
Aw man, dame hates me. *sigh*
posted by teece 19 December | 17:15
I am Spartacus.
posted by It's Raining Florence Henderson 19 December | 17:18
I hate poetry, don't hate "poets" unless they deserve it. Poetry is tripe, all affectation and no balls.

This is definitely IMHO..I know this is an unpopular point of view.
posted by tetsuo 19 December | 17:20
If you told that to Bukowski, tetsuo, he'd probably take your balls. But he wasn't a good poet so maybe that saves your theory.
posted by teece 19 December | 17:23
i write poetry
about the calculus
of my balls

haters
may proceed
to suck it
posted by It's Raining Florence Henderson 19 December | 17:24
Lucky he's dead. I love his work..his prose anyway.
posted by tetsuo 19 December | 17:24
Not a theory teece, I stress the O in IMHO, (no pile-on please).
posted by tetsuo 19 December | 17:26
Okay, teece, I hate the poets I have met here in Brooklyn. You have given me no reason to hate you personally, except that one AskMe, and I figure we all make mistakes.

But I have to go catch seanyboyboy; I think all the slow running may really screw with him.
posted by dame 19 December | 17:29
dame: can we have some paraphrased examples?
posted by chewatadistance 19 December | 17:39
dame:
Please do not be chasing the Seanyboy. He does not live in Brooklyn. I don't know if he's over 6 feet tall. I don't know about the other thing either.
posted by matildaben 19 December | 18:12
You mean if he's over 28?
posted by dame 19 December | 18:16
i admit, part of why i use to return to mefi was because it was consistently better in spelling and word use.
those were the days.
posted by ethylene 19 December | 18:18
I'm sorry, yoga, my brain is too tired to paraphrase right now, and copying and pasting might get me into trouble. I mean, I'm not really supposed to diss our authors in public.
posted by dame 19 December | 18:19
Editing is like staring at the sun for a living without a net.
posted by It's Raining Florence Henderson 19 December | 18:21
Staring at the net is like editing the sun without living.
posted by ethylene 19 December | 18:25
Living is like editing the net without the sun.
posted by It's Raining Florence Henderson 19 December | 18:27
Hey dame - Do you have to edit poetry books, too? That seems like it would add insult to injury.
posted by It's Raining Florence Henderson 19 December | 18:34
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