Hey, Doohickie, I feel your pain. Our family changed churches a few times, and it's always really hard. Because in a way, they're your family. :-( Good luck at the elder meeting!

Sympathies. The kid has to do what he has to do. If you have raised him right he will come around to your way of thinking. 15 is a ... difficult age for boys. I would hazard there is a girl, you might not know about her.

"Apparently, the powers that be in our church don't care so much about dissent ... "

" ... becoming all about the numbers and money."

Sounds like just about every church in the history of the world. Maybe you ought to start your own. It worked for Joseph Smith and L. Ron Hubbard.

Also, be glad that he has the guts to stand up for what he believes and not just go along with you because he feels compelled to out of family loyalty. That is a two-edged sword to some extent, of course, but being true to your own beliefs is about the most important thing you can teach your children and something that most 15 year-olds are incapable of.

Because in a way, they're your family.

This has always been true for us, since the closest we've lived to real family in the last 21 years is almost 300 miles.

The kid has to do what he has to do. If you have raised him right he will come around to your way of thinking.

While it would be nice for us to worship as a family, I hope he never perceives the issues that drove us away well enough to "come around to [our] way of thinking." He's a good kid and it wouldn't surprise me if he ended up in some sort of ministry.

I would hazard there is a girl, you might not know about her.

Oh, we know about her. He pines for her constantly.

"Apparently, the powers that be in our church don't care so much about dissent ... "

" ... becoming all about the numbers and money."

Sounds like just about every church in the history of the world.

Only insofar as every human endeavor is subject to the frailties of the human animal.

Also, be glad that he has the guts to stand up for what he believes and not just go along with you because he feels compelled to out of family loyalty. That is a two-edged sword to some extent, of course, but being true to your own beliefs is about the most important thing you can teach your children and something that most 15 year-olds are incapable of.

We've been very conscious of trying to raise our kids to be independent (the older one just started college, and actually was independent enough to opt to *not* join the church or get confirmed... he's more of a universalist anyway, but that's for another thread I guess).

Our denomination (Presbyterian Church USA) has a long history of placing a high value on education and independent thought, and part of the reason we are leaving is that we disagree with some of the congregation's actions toward the future and they don't wanna hear any dissent... which kind of goes against that tradition.

We have several connections at other PCUSA churches in the area and will land on our feet eventually, but it hurts like hell right now.

Our "interim" church (the one we plan to go to for healing, but not necessarily to join) is pastored by a woman who was just ordained and (ironically) did her student ministering at the church we are just leaving. We won't join there because it is pretty far from our house (about a 40 minute drive), but having some visitors for a while will help the congegation of less than 40. I hope.

Doohickie, you have my sympathy. I think the divorce analogy fits all too well.

As to your son, I think you are doing the right thing. As long as he can get what he needs out of that particular faith community that is what matters.

if you like her and the other people, why not? 40 minutes is not so far, and you'll prob be wary of getting too involved too soon anyway.

You're a good dad, Doohickie.

That's a real loss for everyone.

40 minutes is quite a bit, when there are two other churches within 20 minutes. The one we just left was 5-10 minutes. And at the other church, the only person I know is the pastor; we haven't gone there yet.

puddinghead: See, that's what I don't get. we've been faithful members for 8 years; my wife had already served a full 3-year elder term, and I was year into a term myself. We had, in my view, some reasonable issues to raise. And rather than getting a decent hearing and perhaps trying to address our concerns, we're shut down. We wouldn't have brought them up if we didn't think they were having a negative effect on the church. But the expansion juggernaut is unstoppable, dammit.

You should do like the Scandinavians and have a fistfight, resulting in simmering bad blood for the next 250 years.

Bad joke.

I would just keep in mind that everybody is trying to serve, and everybody probably believes they're serving the same interests. I guess it's a testament to the diversity of creation that everybody sees the same thing in different ways. Understanding those differences is the seed of tolerance, and tolerance is central to these teachings, as far as I can tell.

That's probably why you are leaving. Maybe they've lost sight of tolerance in their hurry to do what they think is good for the congregation/church/community.

You've probably thought through any advice I could give you, and other people who have experience with this sort of thing are better resources than me. But what you're going through is understandable, and it helps to think that what the rest of your congregation is going through is understandable, and individual, and collective, all at once.

At least, that's how I see it. But I've only ever been to church once, and that was all in German and Latin and Hebrew, so I just looked at the pretty stained glass and let Christmas wash over me vicariously.

Good luck and Godspeed in your search.

Hugh,

It is very much a he-said, she-said situation apparently. Things that are glaringly wrong to me seem to be exactly according to plan to others. If that's the way they feel, and we can't reconcile, it's probably best that my wife and I move on.

My wife commented that she was kind of grieving for the friends we are giving up and was obviously upset. Several people asked what was wrong, but she didn't want to go into details with most people, so she simply said she didn't want to talk about it. Since she went to the late service and I went to the early service, I'm sure there are those who will think my wife and I are getting divorced... a natural conclusion, I suppose.

That's all pretty messed up. I'm sorry to hear you have to move on (I know how it feels to leave my soccer team in MD to move to NYC, which broke my heart, but it's not the same). But congregations are for the generally like-minded, and if there are insurmountable divisions in either ideas or personalities or both, moving on is the right thing to do. Though it still hurts.

Then again (and I risk sounding facile here) taking a stand in this sort of situation seems to me most Christian. I'm sure you'll find the warmth and community you seek, and I hope you find it soon.

I seriously considered taking a stand, but if things are really the way I am starting to believe, my lack of skill with things political would mean I am destined to failure. I'm just not good with that kind of stuff. Merely by leaving, I think, I will be making a statement, and probably making it more effectively than if I stayed and talked myself into a corner.

One of the things I've learned through the years is that devious zealots almost always win over earnest simpletons. I would say that I am clearly in the minority within the congregation. The zealots are also in the minority, but they are vocal and better organized, and have convinced the laid-back middle they are doing the right thing. And who knows? Maybe they're right. My objections are about where I see the church heading, not where it is right now, so to many, I merely sound alarmist.

Merely by leaving, I think, I will be making a statement, and probably making it more effectively than if I stayed and talked myself into a corner.

Actually, that's what I meant by taking a stand -- leaving the fold. And you'll find yourself in a long tradition if you do, one going back, well, all the way.

I think you sound settled on doing the right thing, and to me it sounds like the right thing. I get that the tough part is breaking with the "earnest simpletons," or just those who aren't "devious zealots," of your congregation.

But folks really get to thinking when they see a respected elder leave, and you may find that your separation from some of those you care most about is only temporary.

Sounds to me like you're doing right by yourself, your family, your faith, and your congregation, too.

I am one of the earnest simpletons, you idiot! All kidding aside, I resigned from the governing board (session) tonight. I had terribly mixed feelings about the whole thing.

And I am not the only one who is leaving. Before knowing for sure I was stepping down, the minister told me that the older couple that runs the Meals on Wheels program at the church has left and a replacement needed to be found (I was chair of the Outreach & Mission Committee). Another elder, as well as the head of the advertising subcommittee, are also stepping back... and several other members.

It may not be enough to turn the tide, but it's enough to send a message. To turn the tide, it will take one of the rich older folks to say "ENOUGH!" and call the minister on the carpet. I kind of hold out hope for that, but don't really expect it.