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04 April 2008

Even [More:] if this particular man's preferences are more inclusive than the culture at large's, his complimenting a feature that's not culturally sanctioned still actively upholds and reinforces the overall idea that women exist to be judged. And as long as that idea exists, someone is always going to be telling women that even if society now finds dark skin [or whatever other feature] attractive, it doesn't really matter because she's still got to conform by doing Y procedure or buying Z cosmetic.

~ occhiblu

I think occhi said something that I'd never even thought of and I just wanted to highlight it. Thanks O!
That is a really insightful comment, occhi! But it has me thinking (and apologies if this is a derail): Don't we all, as individuals, judge one way or another? Or at least most of us?

Not to support the elitist societal standards of attractiveness (and they are by definition elitist, regardless of the society, if you believe Veblen). But we, as individuals, judge -- we sort things into categories according to their use, their appearance, where they fit into our original values. We may be careful to avoid moral judgements where they are not warranted (such as when we lack cultural context to make that call), but we have our personal values, and we tend to sort things in our lives, and include and exclude them, according to our values.

Which brings me back to this concept of beauty: is it even possible to not have our own personal standards of beauty? And if we do, how cautious should we be in complimenting someone without doing just what occhiblu points out?

The thought behind this is that I am not beautiful by cultural standards at the moment -- I'm over 40 with about 30 extra pounds on me, and even without those extra pounds, I'm built with a rather large frame, have short hair, don't tan, and -- frankly, don't have Marilyn Monroe's facial features, either. But the few times people have complimented me on my looks, it's been important to me. So, where is the line?
posted by lleachie 04 April | 08:28
But the few times people have complimented me on my looks, it's been important to me.

I know what you mean. (It's only recently when a few people who I really appreciate have complimented me on the way that I look, I've sort of felt comfortable with it, and even good in my own skin.)

I guess the line lies in how comfortable the person who you're giving the compliment to feels about it?
posted by hadjiboy 04 April | 08:48
Thanks, hadjiboy!

lleachie, I think "judge" was probably the wrong word to use there; "comment" or "publicly judge" or "rule on" is closer to what I meant. Of course we all judge each other, but I think women's bodies are held up as public property, things on which every person is supposed to not only have an opinion but also publicly render judgment, and women are trained to care what that ruling is, and that's really the framework that bothers me.

Which is why I think the relationship between the complimenter and the complimentee is really important. There's obviously an expectation of physical attraction between romantic partners, so complimenting your partner doesn't seem to be crossing any lines. Studies have shown that fathers' views of their daughters are hugely influential in the daughters' self-esteem, and I think fathers giving their daughters compliments is great. Close friends, probably ok.

I think things start to get trickier the more distant the relationship becomes, because then you start to run into the issue of, "Why does this person assume that their opinion on my body is so important that it must be shared?" And I think that if the compliment is a one-off fairly innocuous comment like "Nice shoes!", it's probably not a big deal; if the compliment is an ongoing campaign--however well intentioned--to get me to feel better about myself physically, then it starts (I think) to get into that territory of what I was talking about in the quoted comment.

Does that make sense? Were those compliments that were important to you coming from random strangers, or people who you felt had a "right" to have an opinion? (And then, of course, we're back to, "Who has a right to have an opinion about my body and appearance?"...)

On preview: This is what I'm getting at -- "It's only recently when a few people who I really appreciate have complimented me on the way that I look, I've sort of felt comfortable with it, and even good in my own skin."
posted by occhiblu 04 April | 09:27
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