No, I don't want to have children.

But you promised. I need them for my crime fighting team.

I'm sorry elizard. I'd feel your pain, but nobody is pressuring me. I've never wanted them, and I'm lucky to have a fellow who hasn't either. Don't despair.

elizard, people are tactless and clueless.

I never wanted kids and I never wanted to get married. I ended up doing both and life is good, but it's not for everybody.

Honestly, I could be happy with or without kids, with or without a husband. I never understood people that wouldn't feel complete without children. Children are wonderful creatures that add a lot of joy, but they're definitely not a requirement for a happy and fulfilled life.

Oh, and also, no it isn't that I "haven't met the right guy". You see, the right guy for me is someone who *also* doesn't want children.

Thanks for the supportive comments. I needed that. And jonmc, just because I won't be bearing children doesn't mean I won't be happy to run Camp Justice and train a crack team of wee vigilantes for you.

My husband didn't want kids either. What the hell happened? :)

Well, my advice (my personal opinion rather)? Not only about kids, but about anything really. Don't ever, ever get into a discussion trying to explain yourself, or trying to make them understand. It will not happen. Smile, blank stare, change the subject. Or just say "I do not want to discuss it".

(hugs e.)

I hear you. It's annoying as shit. It starts the minute you get married or people realize that you're with your partner long-term OR people start to think of you as a certain age, like ooohhh that biological clock must be ticking! I wonder if guys have to suffer through this too, or if it's mainly women who get the third degree?And do guys ask people when they're going to have kids? Guys besides your Dad or Uncle, I mean...

Disclaimer - I do have kids now, but before I had them I had to listen to crap all the time because my husband and I selfishly wanted 5 whole years to ourselves before we started having them.

Definitely don't give it another thought. It's really no one's business to push you on this point. Plenty of people don't have children, whether by choice or by happenstance -- it seems unaccountably rude to me that anyone would harass you about it. Isn't the world better when people who want children have them, and people who don't, don't?

No, I don't feel like I'm "missing something as a woman". *gag*

For some reason, that's making me giggle maniacally. I think because it sounds as if they're accusing you of having misplaced your uterus. "Well, did you check under the couch???? When did you last see it???"

Sorry you have to put up with that, elizard.

I don't really want to have kids either. But as a guy in his mid-30s, the gals available for dating (who actually want a relationship) want nothing but kids. It's all about the kids. In fact, I know a bunch of single women who want kids a lot more than they want husbands. It's depressing.

Also, maybe you should refer those friends to brainwidth's thread below.

(Ahhh, I see Miko had the same idea!)

Hahaha!

Yeah, I'm someone who's always kind of wanted children, but the older I've gotten the more I realize what an immense sacrifice and effort and serious venture it is. The more you know about it, the more you realize what a total commitment it's going to (or should) require, and the less you just want to jump in. I'm not at peace with the idea that yeah, I'd like to be a parent, but if it's not in the cards, then there will be a lot of energy available to me to contribute to the world in a lot of other great ways (and avoid the stuff in the thread below, to boot).

Biology. Hey, it's a mother (no pun intended).

Not to make excuses for clueless and rude people, but I think part of it is that they have found real joy in their children and wish that for you.

For years I detested children and never wanted any. Obviously that changed and changed dramatically (I have three and one grandchild) but it wasn't because someone else was nagging about it.

If it makes you feel any better, there are always people who make comments whether or not you breed. I always had to put up with folks who literally said to my face that I had too many (I had three, not a dozen. Sheesh.)

bunnyfire, that's actually pretty insightful. The underlying problem in both elizard and your case is that there's a certain subset of people who a)can't imagine people not wanting exactly what they want and b) can't mind their own business and c)keep their opinions to themselves.

Not to make excuses for clueless and rude people, but I think part of it is that they have found real joy in their children and wish that for you.

I don't want to start anything here, and I'm sure that with the people you know, Bunnyfire, that's exactly what it is. But I'm not sure that's the best explanation for the worst offenders.

I get it a lot too, especially among members of my extended family (older cousins) who'd know I was gay if they pieced it together, but are too small-minded and small-town to actually do that. I always get the impression that people feel I've failed my duties (yeah, as a woman -- but also to my parents, who would make excellent grandparents). It's like I haven't fulfilled my potential.

And maybe they're just wishing all their happiness on me. Maybe that's it. But if that IS the case, it's laughable. Most of them have 4 or 5 kids, have been through 2 or 3 marriages, and the kids aren't really all that well-adjusted. (In one case, a 15-year-old 2nd cousin is pregnant.)

So, maybe people's intentions are good, but it sure as hell doesn't come across that way.

I mean, come on. A lot of my friends drive nice cars, and they love those cars. (I don't have a car, by choice.) But they don't repeatedly ask me, "So, are you ever going to buy a Lexus?"

Well, then there's always the herd mentality hypothesis. Having kids is "what people do" and heaven help the person out of step, whether by having no kids or having x + 1 (x being whatever the "right" number is.)

Why is it so hard for some people to understand not wanting kids? →[More:]For crying out loud. No, I don't want to have children. No, I don't feel like I'm "missing something as a woman". *gag* And having felt this way for over 10 years, no it's not "just a phase" for chrissakes. I've thought about it. A lot. Why the hell can't some women just respect that and leave it alone? No, I'm not strangely deficient or unnatural; I just feel differently about it than you. Leave it at that, m'kay, and get the hell outta my face. (Venting frustration from having yet another friend unexpectedly broadside me with the same goddamned attitude.)

Hrm.

Lessons For New Parents, Part I: If your child hasn't dirtied his diaper in a bit, be hesitant before rubbing his bottom too vigorously during a wet diaper change. If you do, he may unleash a tubgirl-esque fountain of liquid poop across the room, splattering you, the changing pad, and the floor. And, while you frantically try and clean the poop, he will do what knows he how to do best: pee on you.

ROFLMAO.

'nuff said, pretty much.

I think, in some sense [please note that this is not a reasoned hypothesis, but something coming off the top of my head], that's sort of it, bunnyfire. But it's more like, "Oh, I have kids, and this person is refusing. What does that say about my choice? Why aren't they doing what seems right to me?"

It's sort of like the whole weird argument about how gay marriage [sorry to bring that up twice, because I don't in anyway feel it's part of the issue] threatens straight people's marriages.

From the perspective of being childless, and deliberately so, it sometimes sounds like people with kids think you're somehow impugning or criticizing their lifestyle. And, in my case anyway, that couldn't be further from the truth. It's just not for me, not right now. Good lord, no one should encourage me to reproduce right now.

But some people refuse understand that -- that it's a relative thing, and that it's not right or desireable for everyone in every circumstance.

It's supposed to be the holy grail of human existence. And for those of us who don't pursue it, well, we're seen as less holy.

Give those folks the 'from which height did you fall' stare, elizard.

You were calling her a friend...


Men don't get the same pressure at all as women. Is it because we have no uterus¿ If you're older and single and no kids, they look at you and think whatever it is they think. Who cares, not their life, my bed and I sleeps in it.

Maybe some folks try to validate themselves by putting others down or making snarky remarks about things that shouldn't concern them.

So let yet another friend know, that their remark was uncalled for.

But it's more like, "Oh, I have kids, and this person is refusing. What does that say about my choice? Why aren't they doing what seems right to me?"

Exactly. People who get bent out of shape by other people's decisions/lifestyles aren't secure in their own, generally speaking.

It's supposed to be the holy grail of human existence.

Maybe-in the Monty Python version...

A few months ago on the CBC Radio show "Sounds Like Canada," Shelagh Rogers had an panel discussion with a few women who had contributed to a book called Nobody's Mother. They discussed many of the issues you've expressed. There's an interesting article about the book here.

I think kids are indoctrinated into the family mindset at so early an age that as adults they cannot perceive of any other reality.

my husband and I selfishly wanted 5 whole years to ourselves before we started having them

Same here. And the worst part was that our firstborn had bearly drawn her first breath before people started asking when the next one was coming. "You're not going to make her an ONLY CHILD, are you?" Horror of horrors! Or my favorite "You can't wait too long if you want them to be close friends." Right. Like that's a function of timing and not personalities.

Anyway...my standard reply was "I'll let you know the minute we start trying! So if you get a late night phone call that's all grunting and heavy breathing...."

People who think you can't be happy or fulfilled without children have no imagination.

Men don't get the same pressure at all as women. Is it because we have no uterus¿

Clearly it's because your question marks are upside-down. Which may or may not be the same thing. I'm not real good at anatomy.

I have a friend who is really struggling with the fact that she's not going to be able to get pregnant or give birth. It meant a lot to her and she's fought off quite a bit of depression because of this news. I can't imagine how she must feel when someone comes up to her and says "So. When are you guys gonna have kids?" This thought inspired me to start a crusade for the infertile. When a nosy and pushy coworker came up to me for a repeat of the "you need a baby" chat, I looked her in the eye and said "Well, we've been trying for years but after several miscarriages, we've just decided to accept the fact that god doesn't want us to have children." She was silent and walked away but has never asked me, nor have I heard her ask anyone else that question. I figured if people are going to ask me incredibly personal and pointed questions, they're going to incredibly personal responses that may or may not be true.

Another response that I've heard, but I haven't had the courage to say is "Eh, my husband only likes anal sex. But I keep trying."

Fortunately I haven't gotten much of this attitude about my child-free state, at least not to my face. Maybe it's all the atheistic queer-friendly pinkos I hang out with. Elizard, why don't we get married, not have babies, and make soup every day?

And Cinnamon, I didn't know you were posting here now! Welcome!

"I think part of it is that they have found real joy in their children and wish that for you." As a parent I don't believe this is the case most of the time. If you have a good life you share things with folks you don't slap them with things.

"Oh, I have kids, and this person is refusing. What does that say about my choice? Why aren't they doing what seems right to me?" seems about right to me. I think when people are insecure they often project and feel the need to push others to join them on the path they have chosen.

AMEN, elizard. I really hate the people who say "oh, you'll change your mind when you see everyone around you having kids!" and "You don't want to DIE ALONE, do you?" Ummm...I'm 33. I have many friends with kids. I like their kids. It doesn't mean I want my own. And I try not to think about dying, alone or otherwise, at the moment. : )

I never intended to have children. I instead planned on being a crazy old cat lady. I got dealt a different hand through "accidents" and decided to do the best with that. As a result, I had two spawn and I'm the best effing mom I can manage to be, and am told I do pretty well. I better, I say. It's my responsibility to make sure my children are decent human beings in every respect. I never EVER tell folks how to manage their lives. Good grief, it would be just plain rude to do that. I'm happy with my life as it is and that's enough.

Many of my friends don't want kids but, from what they tell me, they are happy about being good aunts and uncles to my kids. I'm an only child, so I feel gifted by their generosity.

(I also respect the hell out of folks who choose differently and also those who adopt. There are so many people on the planet already.)

W.C. Fields on children...

(When he was a 14-year-old starstruck lad, the future science fiction writer Ray Bradbury spotted Fields on the sidewalk in front of the Paramount studios and whipped out his autograph book. After signing it and handing it back to Bradbury, Fields said:)
"There you are, you little son of a bitch."

(Someone asked Fields: "How do you like children?")
"They are very good with mustard."

"Oh, I have kids, and this person is refusing. What does that say about my choice? Why aren't they doing what seems right to me?"

I'll put a little different spin on it.

There are all kinds of social structures built by adults for children, each with its coterie of adult stakeholders and more petty politics than a well adjusted person can stomach. Parents invest time and energy in these organizations to varying degrees. For some people it is more or less their entire life.

When they ask "are you going to have children?" they want to know if those organizations are ever going to be interesting to you. If not, then it is not worth their time to indoctrinate you with regard to parenting sins and the one true child management plan that will be your salvation, and which will incidentally involve you in an organization in which they have some influence, even if that's just the local parents gossip mill.

I just wish asking about having kids was a social taboo altogether. I want kids myself, but I can totally understand not wanting them, and it would be so insulting to have someone try to convince me otherwise. It's akin to announcing your engagement and having someone who doesn't even know you say, "Well, I really think you'd be happier marrying someone else."

As for me, I have some medical issues that mean it's an on-again off-again thing if I am able to be trying to have kids at any particular moment. When people ask, I feel like I have to go into a full medical history to explain myself properly, which I don't want to do. And when people try to sympathize, they ALWAYS assume it's infertility and tell me inspiring stories. It's not infertility, and I don't want to hear that your cousin Lisa tried for eight years and now has triplets!

The other annoying thing is when people know you want kids, like your friends. I've been asked about kids, announced we're trying, had a medical setback, and then everyone asks "How is getting pregnant going?" Aside from the whole needing to announce my medical struggles over and over again thing, what the hell is that question about? Am I supposed to say "Well, we're fucking a lot, but nothing seems to be happening." I wish I had the nerve to say that.

Also, my mother-in-law calls before every freakin' holiday and asks "Do you have any news for me to tell the relatives?" Like she wouldn't know already if I was pregnant, first of all, and then somehow, I'm not living up to my duty to provide conversational fodder for the family gatherings.

To conclude: it seems like society is just not happy with a woman unless she is actually pregnant right that very second...don't want kids--bad; can't have kids--bad; just had one and don't want another right that second--bad. There is no way to win.

I'm late, but here's a cute story. Once when my niece was about 5 I was having lunch at her house and she suddenly asked me why I don't have any kids. My poor sister was mortified -- I guess she was discussing it and Christy overheard her or something. So I looked at my niece and said, "Well, I wouldn't mind if I had a nice little girl like you. But what if I ended up with . . . . " and then I gestured towards her two older brothers. "I just couldn't take the chance." She got a lot of laughs out of that one.

it surprises me that people are still asking women that. what do i care if someone else has or doesn't have children?

Q. Are you going to have children?
A. All depends on how you cook them.

Let loose with a few of those zingers above, elizard.

My family has known for a long time that I didn't, and don't, want children so I haven't had many people asking me about it. I almost wish someone would ask me now.

Oh, and my standard reply has always been "We haven't figured how to have them yet."

There are some beauties in here, to be sure. I'm particularly fond of cinnamon's "Eh, my husband only likes anal sex. But I keep trying." Also many thoughtful, insightful, and hilarious comments. Thanks as well to chococat for the link to the Tyee article. I had read about this book and think I may pick it up--it looks like a very good read.

To be fair, it doesn't come up very often. Most of my friends are about my age or older, and many are not having children for various reasons, so when we do talk about it it's in an intelligent, understanding sort of way. (Oh, and fortunately most of my friends are not utterly lacking in social graces, which also helps.) It's just that when it does come up in such an obnoxious fashion it really sends me round the twist. The worst part about this one (the part that made it difficult for me to give this woman the 'fuck off' she so clearly deserved) is that she was genuinely perplexed, and that it would never occur to me to tell her that IMHO her attempts to get pregnant may be a tad irresponsible, as she and her partner strike me as being woefully ill-prepared for parenthood and her reasons seem a bit, well, off. Who knows? I'm no friggin' expert. Maybe it'll work out wonderfully. No matter what, it's not my place to tell her.

Also, like lilywing's friends, I'm delighted to be an aunt to my closest friend's son, and to my siblings' children (should they have any). For me, children are like dogs: I like other people's, but that's partly because when they get to be a pain, someone takes them away and I don't have to deal with it ;)

Thank you all for such an engaging, insightful, and interesting conversation.

(((bunnies)))