I highly recommend the Wikipedia article on prog rock if you want to get an idea of its defining characteristics. (Although as the article points out, "there is probably no single element that is shared by all music that has been considered to be progressive rock.")

actually, this is more up kenko's alley. I'm more of what you'd call a 'trad rock' guy, in that I didn't believe that rock needed any elevtion from it's Chuck Berry/Elvis/Little Richard foundation to be called art.

That said, I do like some prog. Pink Floyd, Rush, genesis, Can, Amon Duul, Jethro Tull, Procol Harum, King Crimson and others have all done some fine work. Yes still suck though, as did ELP.

As far as politics go, you're on your own.

King Crimson balanced the fuckin' budget in one album side with all their math prowess.

"Yes still suck though."

You're on my list now, boy-o. Watch your back.

Whaddaya gonna do, sing "Roundabout," at me? Due to prolonged exposure to classic rock radio, I am immune.

Hardly. I might knock ya on yer kiester with "Heart of the Sunrise," though.

Kenko puts the "roger" in "progger".

I read the wikipedia article last week, but it didn't answer my question. I still have no clue why it's called "progressive." Is that as opposed to "regressive rock" and what would that be? DEVO? De-evolution and all...

*head spins*

I think it was originally some sort of refernce to progressive jazz, although what the connection there is remains something of a mystery to me.

Or, maybe they just thought it sounded good.

nope, regressive rock (or trad rock) is a lot ofthe stuff I like. Willfully simple, crude and direct without any apologies.

I assume it was b/c they were (allegedly) expanding the boundaries of what rock was by having longer songs, classical influences, weird instruments - more than just 3 minutes/3 chords.

It certainly makes more sense than "alternative" (how can it be alternative when it was the most popular thing at the time? I guess it had a better ring to it than "just like Black Sabbath if they couldnt play or write songs" rock)

So Trad Rock would be more blues influenced, like Led Zeppelin?

That's selling grunge a bit short, drjimmy11. The seattle crew was a breath of fresh air in those dark days; raw hard-rocking music with brains and heart in the top 40. this was a good thing.

But you're correct, the terms 'alternative' and 'indie' have ceased to have any meaning. One used to mean 'difficult to categorize' but now seems to mean nothing at all. 'Indie' originally just meant 'records on non-corporate label' (which I heartily applaud; and it could have applied to people from Raven to Tuscadero at one point), but it's become codified to mean 'bespectacled passionless dorks who think it's beneath them to rock out/write songs with melodies or catchy choruses.

/bitter old man

So Trad Rock would be more blues influenced, like Led Zeppelin?

Not exactly. Zep definetly had trad-rock roots in blues and rockabilly, but they had progressive tendencies too: long solos, eastern tunings, studio trickery, etc. Trad rock would be stuff that sticks strictly to the loud/fast/trashy verse/punchy chorus structure laid down in the early days: see Ramones, Dictators, Blondie, AC/DC.

Are we gonna have to send you to the remedial school of rock?

(just so's you know, I can appreciate stuff from both camps and many others, but I lean in the trad direction)

And btw, what would be an example of a band, crude or otherwise, that does apologise for itself? And no, emo doesn't count.

Are we gonna have to send you to the remedial school of rock?

*packs suitcase* woooo hoooooo!!!!!!!!!

Indie... (has) become codified to mean 'bespectacled passionless dorks who think it's beneath them to rock out/write songs with melodies or catchy choruses.

Ay yi yi! C'mon, jon, what's with the straw man? There's good, rockin' indie stuff out there and you know it. What scarred you so, man? Did someone assault you with a Weezer CD at some point?

What is "acid" and/or "jazz" about "acid jazz"?

Boyoboyoboy it's fun talking about music, isn't it?

Seriously, I know you're not one of those "there's only one way to rock" doofuses. Why the antipathy?

I think we really need to draw out the distinction between indie and emo a bit more. The two of them make interchangeable fashion statements, but emo merely nests within the larger universe of indie. However, clearly anybody who lubes with tears does not rawk.

What scarred you so, man?

Having to catalog 14 billion bad 'indie' CD's at my job. It scars a man. I know that there's still good stuff being released on independent labels, but the whole pissing-contest more-indie-than thou ethos has kinda owrn thin with me. And I actually like weezer. I just think it's ironic that a genre calling itself indie has developed a rather depressing...sameness.

Hell, I actually enjoyed 'Honkytonk Badonkadonk.' I'm the last person you want to be consulting on today's scene.

(and it's ultimately aesthetic too. there seems to be a trend toward listles and/or drony melodies, flat deadpan vocals and 'arch' lyrics these days and that's just not my bag.)

there seems to be a trend toward listles and/or drony melodies, flat deadpan vocals and 'arch' lyrics these days

Ah. that'd be the neo-post-punk ripoff stuff. Yeah, that sucks dead monkey ass.

Hell, I actually enjoyed 'Honkytonk Badonkadonk.'

I sing along to this song specifically to drive my wife insane.

I don't mind the New Country station once in a while, as long as it's not some Toby Keith jingoistic crap.

I like a few indie artists, but I do find a lot of the stuff a bit drony, as you say. I like my music to have more of the uh, Badonkadonk.

Exactly! That's what's missing: the testosterone (among other things). I also blame the lack of any R&B influence in today's indie rock.

And that "Badonkadonk," song is a)funny and b) catchy.

Okay, as an old dude who worked in the radio biz in the 70s, I feel uniquely qualified to address this question. When the mostly-British, Classical-and-Folk-influenced, long-form, highly pretentious* style first emerged at the end of the 60s, it was most often called Classical Rock. At the same time, FM radio began to make waves with the anti-Top-40 free-form music un-format that was called Progressive Radio. While the early Progressive DJs had the total freedom to pick their own music, because they were the only ones playing the Classical Rock and the individual songs were so long, you were most likely to tune into KPPC** in the middle of a Floyd or ELP magnumopus, and the Progressive hook began to apply to the music. Then, in the mid-70s, Corporate Radio made a hostile takeover of most of the Prog Radio stations, imposed non-DJ-created playlists, and the Radio Industry decided to rename the format Album-Oriented Rock or AOR (a title that never really caught on outside The Industry, but they have quite a few of those). By the time the truly bastardized format of All-Old-Album-Rock named Classic Rock took hold, memories of Progressive Radio and Classical Rock were lost to all but the most die-hard fogeys like me, and all we're left with is Progressive Rock.

So, to make a long story even longer, Progressive Rock had nothing to do with politics or stylistic evolution (and let's face it, borrowing passages from Olde English folk songs and Baroque masters was more REgressive), just the changing whims of the Radio Biz.


*there are many rock sub-genres that are highly pretentious; I find most of them more entertaining than even their originators intended.
**a Pasadena, CA station considered one of the birthplaces of Progressive Radio, not to be confused with current-day NPR station KPCC.

If you substitute "sex" for "testosterone", you might get me to agree with you. And I wouldn't say there's no R&B influence, but there ain't much, generally speaking.

I do not know the badnokadonkadoo song, so will remain silent on that count.

And wendell with the slam dunk...

Okay, as an old dude who worked in the radio biz in the 70s,

10:1 it's wendell. Yay! I win. Who pays up?

I've always viewed most prog -- ELP, King Crimson, etc. -- as stuff that as a smart person I'm supposed to like, but actually don't very much. I love the Yes album 90125 (hey, one of the first cassettes I ever bought) but not much else.

That said, I found this Vermont Review series on prog rock kinda interesting to skim.

*counts out singles to stilicho*

Jon, what doesn't rock about Neutral Milk Hotel's "Holland, 1945"?

Please, don't refer to Pink Floyd as prog-rock. Only refer to them as psychadelic-rock. Please don't destroy my justification for loving them.

No Syd, no psychedelic.

True. But that isn't always a bad thing. But then, I have been listening to Floyd non-stop for the past 6 hours as we clean the house ready for a sale inspection tommorrow, so I may be biaised.

hellbient, I'll be using that in conversation the first chance I get! with proper attribution of course.

No anchor? It was the King Crimson budget balancing line.